To the Death

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:56 pm

I've got something some of you might have some fun with.

I'm not particulary confident that the what-if scenario in the readme.txt file is possible, as it ultimately comes down to at least a slightly different Adolf Hitler than the one we had historically. But if you can get past that point, then here goes:

http://www.xtn.net/~ecogburn/WIRHACK.ZIP

It contains a modified wir.exe file that disables Western Air Forces, Partisans, the West and Italian Fronts (they never shatter), and City Allegiances. See the readme.txt for more details.

The scenario provided removes all Western help for the Soviets. They are on their own.

Have fun!

[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 25, 2001).]

shane056 · Post by **shane056** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:35 pm

Ed, could'nt download it as it's not there to be downloaded, please supply alternate location thanks ...Shane

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:57 pm

Nice Ed,
I have just downloaded but I was just watching the Why We Fight propaganda films last night and was wondering what would happen if Germany would have Liberated the Ukraine instead of destroying half of it and got all of the Ukraine behind them. Guess I will find out shortly.

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:41 am

Well needless to say Russia did not survive Summer of 42 with almost all land taken except for the Baku area. Moscow and Leningrad fell before first snow fall.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:29 am

Originally posted by tsbond:
Well needless to say Russia did not survive Summer of 42 with almost all land taken except for the Baku area. Moscow and Leningrad fell before first snow fall.

I don't really expect the computer AI to survive this. At even difficulty we all can routinely beat the AI. This might be more interesting human vs human. When I played this solitare with this "USSR on its own" version I made for the first version of WiR, the USSR survived to '43. I haven't run this new version solitare thru the blizzards of '41 to see if the balance and blizzard problems being discussed are having an effect on the outcome.

[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 25, 2001).]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:55 am

Originally posted by shane056:
Ed, could'nt download it as it's not there to be downloaded, please supply alternate location thanks ...Shane

Try again Shane. It was there, but wasn't being "seen". I re-uploaded the zip file this time with its name in lowercase and now it works, very weird.

http://www.xtn.net/~ecogburn/wirhack.zip

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:05 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

http://www.xtn.net/~ecogburn/wirhack.zip

I proppose the name for your scenario, Ed!
"New adventures of italians in Russia"!

John W Cochran · Post by **John W Cochran** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:27 pm

Originally posted by tsbond:
Nice Ed,
I have just downloaded but I was just watching the Why We Fight propaganda films last night and was wondering what would happen if Germany would have Liberated the Ukraine instead of destroying half of it and got all of the Ukraine behind them. Guess I will find out shortly.

Exactly -- even given what Germany did to the conquered territory in USSR, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians still tried to enlist to fight the Soviets.

Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's.

Talk about a diff timeline. . .

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:55 pm

Originally posted by John W Cochran:
Exactly -- even given what Germany did to the conquered territory in USSR, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians still tried to enlist to fight the Soviets.
Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's.
Talk about a diff timeline. . .

Why wouldn't you talk about Axis allied with USSR and declared war to US? I bet US would be beaten everywhere! Just because of lesser industry capacities and manpower. I wonder why most of Americans here excersize themselves in predicting of results of possible wars with Russia. Are you so affraid of us? Is cold war over? Huh?

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:31 am

Originally posted by Mist:
Why wouldn't you talk about Axis allied with USSR and declared war to US?

Indeed, this could easily have happened. The Soviets and Nazis were rather close in 1939-1940. All it would have taken was that the French and British had managed to send their expeditionary force to Finland for the III Reich and the Soviet Union to be brothers in arms.

It is rather drole to read the statements from west-european Communist newspapers from this time. They were trying to present Germany as a progressive force for peace and France and Britain as Imperialist agressors. LOL!

tsbond · Post by **tsbond** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:35 am

It is not a personal offense Mist I am just talking about the "what if" scenario. It is a fact that Ukraine wanted out of the Soviet Union and that many hoped that Germany would free them. When I say Russia or Germany this or that I do not point fingers at the Russian people or Germans people only at politics and armies. If you want to discuss the Axis-Soviet pact to rid the world of the US by all means lets I will not take offense and would most likely find it interesting.

It is just that the chances of a Axis-Soviet Pact to fight the US would be much more unlikely then say English landing troops in Finland or the Ukrainians rising up to help Germany to remove the Soviet yoke. These things almost happened (and to some extent did in Ukraine) that is the reason we discuss the chances of it happening. Russia invading the US or Germany would be near impossible. So no offense, playing wargames is not much more then an intelectual challenge to change history in what we think should have happened or to probe the "what if" scenario.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:40 am

Originally posted by Mist:
I proppose the name for your scenario, Ed!
"New adventures of italians in Russia"!

Actually, I believe my alternate history would require the Italians to remain busy expanding and policing their Mediterranean empire and holding off possible problems with Commonwealth countries causing problems from the east from India.

The only reason I left the Italians in the Italian front box, was because this silly game won't let you delete a division. Every slot in the division list must have something in it.

Had I gotten my way, the Italians and at least 3 korps of Germans, one armored, would be permanently out of the game to represent forces needed to deal with Greece, and insurgencies in the Mediterranean, France and the Middle East. The security divisions would also have gone too as they aren't needed anymore to deal with partisans. I would also have removed Italian factories to represent their total focus on supporting their own forces. If this game ever allows the deletion of divisions I'll "fix" this problem in my scenario.

The only thing I can do is suggest to players that forces in the Italian Front are *not* available for the entire game, do not change Italian factories to producing German equipment, and the replacement level must be maintained at a high mark, but since units in the Fronts no longer shatter, once the units in the Italian front reach their replacement marks, they'll never need any more reinforcments. I would really like to fix this by deleting divisions and factories instead.

[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 26, 2001).]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:53 am

Originally posted by tsbond:
It is not a personal offense Mist I am just talking about the "what if" scenario. It is a fact that Ukraine wanted out of the Soviet Union and that many hoped that Germany would free them.

It wasn't just Ukrainians either. The USSR was made up of many different cultures, and in most of these cultures there was a desire to be free of communism or at least free of Russian dominance. Witness the extensive, rapid breakup of the USSR, and reactions of peoples like the ones from Chechnya. Its been said there could even have been substantial volunteers from among the Russians themselves, for ideological (anti-communist) reasons. If we had had a clever cunning Hitler instead of a brutal, arrogant, maniacally aggressive one, the world might have turned out very differently than now.

[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited February 26, 2001).]

NEON DEON · Post by **NEON DEON** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:36 am

QUOTES by MIST:
Why wouldn't you talk about Axis allied with USSR and declared war to US? I bet US would be beaten everywhere!

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REPLY:
Ok ill bite. Mist, before I assume anything I have to ask you. Do you mean the Continental US. Too?

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QUOTE:
Just because of lesser industry capacities and manpower.

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REPLY:
Economically I guess it would have to boil down to the year that you pick. What year?
Manpower would be an interesting dilemma for the US. Don’t know if the US could have applied a modern army in the thirties to make up for the difference.

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QUOTE:
I wonder why most of Americans here excursive themselves in predicting of results of possible wars with Russia.

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REPLY:
Back at ya. I wonder why you want to try to predict a possible war against the US in the 30s?

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QUOTE:
Are you so afraid of us?

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REPLY: I am afraid of any country that has nuclear weapons and the capability to use them. I also hope those countries are just as scared as I.

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Quote:
Is cold war over? Huh?

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REPLY: Apparently for you it isn’t.

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:55 pm

"Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's."

Huh? I suppose you mean Winter War, which took place in 1939-40. And it was swedes who didn't want troops using their terrotory on their way to Finland.

The sad reality of that incident is that UK and others had no intention of helping Finland. They were mainly interested in securing the natural resources in northern sweden. In practice, no troops would have sent to Finland.

John W Cochran · Post by **John W Cochran** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:21 pm

Originally posted by Nemesis:
"Not only that, but imagine if Denmark hadn't refused passage of the British troops on their way to help Finland against USSR in the mid 30's."

Huh? I suppose you mean Winter War, which took place in 1939-40. And it was swedes who didn't want troops using their terrotory on their way to Finland.

The sad reality of that incident is that UK and others had no intention of helping Finland. They were mainly interested in securing the natural resources in northern sweden. In practice, no troops would have sent to Finland.

Sorry about that. For some reason I remembered it as Denmark refusing the ships passage through the straights -- the time frame was a total guess on my part.

One good thing about this forum, there will always be a kind soul willing to correct any errors. . .

Optha · Post by **Optha** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:01 pm

Hitler/stalin cooperation

Ther have been a cooperation, even if both sides dont trust each other. Allover, Hitler invade Russia because he has no option for taking the initiative in the western sphere, after loosing the aircombat over England. On the other side, Stalins knows, that his forces are not ready for fight (after execute most of his officers some time before).

Any ideas what could happen, if german managed the planned invasion of England?

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:14 pm

ouchies!
I did not mean to turn innocent Ed's post into megathread. Sorry, Ed.
I expected some resonance about it, but I did not mean to offend anyone. And I were not offended in any way. I love matrixboards and respect EVERYONE here.
NEON DEON: You can count me retreating, lad. I saw your discussion with Ed, and so it is beyond my power to argue with you.

Sorry and thank you for quite interesting reply.

[This message has been edited by Mist (edited February 27, 2001).]

Grisha · Post by **Grisha** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:14 am

Suvorov's Icebreaker nonsense aside, from what I've read on the German-Russo Nonaggression Pact was that Stalin felt he had no choice after the western allies showed little interest in an alliance, especially when Poland refused to allow passage for Soviet troops should events require an attack on Germany (The Soviet Union had no direct land route to Germany, and any Soviet attack on Germany would require one. Poland offered the most direct route). Thus, by signing with Germany Stalin felt he was buying time. In a sense, all the allied powers were guilty of not wishing to commit themselves to war with a resurgent, aggressive Germany, but I feel the western allies were more guilty of this than the Soviets.

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Best regards,
Greg Leon Guerrero

StratMan · Post by **StratMan** » Wed Feb 28, 2001 3:06 am

Originally posted by Optha:
Hitler/stalin cooperation

Any ideas what could happen, if german managed the planned invasion of England?

Well, I would say that that would entirely be up to the United States, Would they declare war on Germany or not.
ed's scenario say's no, they would not declare war on Germany, and I thought that that UK and USA were allies, could be wrong here as I have not had the time to look it up, but I do think that the USA would seriously consider it as they would not be to the liking of having a new world power emerge. On the other hand I do not think that the USA had the political will to start a war in Europe so Ed could be right.
If the USA did not declare war on Germany then I do believe that Russia would have fallen after the fall of England, but who really knows. Hitler would still have had to keep those security division's Ed, and I suspect a few more besides, just to police the occupied countries. However I do not think that Hitler would not have to much to worry about any US involvment once England had been taken out of the war, not for a few years anyway.
StratMan.
He who strikes first, should strike the hardest or he is in a world of shite...