CHS 2.04 475th FG

[worr]

Andrew, if (or when) you do another update...I'd like to correct one of my own mistakes.

The 475th FG was the first US fighter group to form on foreign soil...Brisbane, AUS. I had this in some of my earlier documents, but it didn't carry over to some of the later stuff. Right now they are showing up 5/14/43 in San Diego. It was activated May 14th of 1943. But the first squadrons with planes began to arrive 6/26 Amberly Field in Bisbane, AUS. Aug 12th they are active out of Port Morsbey.

I can e-mail you the particular changes.

Here is what I had in my final document:

475th FG

431st FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 24/0/24
432nd FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 12/0/24
433rd FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 12/0/24

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Post here particular changes, please.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: worr

Andrew, if (or when) you do another update...I'd like to correct one of my own mistakes.

The 475th FG was the first US fighter group to form on foreign soil...Brisbane, AUS. I had this in some of my earlier documents, but it didn't carry over to some of the later stuff. Right now they are showing up 5/14/43 in San Diego. It was activated May 14th of 1943. But the first squadrons with planes began to arrive 6/26 Amberly Field in Bisbane, AUS. Aug 12th they are active out of Port Morsbey.

I can e-mail you the particular changes.

Here is what I had in my final document:

475th FG

431st FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 24/0/24
432nd FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 12/0/24
433rd FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 12/0/24

You are right - those revised dates do look better given the unit histories.

Andrew

[worr]

Monter, I bumped the threads for the P-38, P47 changes last week.
 
Just go to page two of this forum...or if want the work sheets I can e-mail them to anyone who has questions.
 
Worr, out

[Monter_Trismegistos]

Ah, OK. I read those some time ago. I thought you discovered something new.

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: worr

Andrew, if (or when) you do another update...I'd like to correct one of my own mistakes.

The 475th FG was the first US fighter group to form on foreign soil...Brisbane, AUS. I had this in some of my earlier documents, but it didn't carry over to some of the later stuff. Right now they are showing up 5/14/43 in San Diego. It was activated May 14th of 1943. But the first squadrons with planes began to arrive 6/26 Amberly Field in Bisbane, AUS. Aug 12th they are active out of Port Morsbey.

I can e-mail you the particular changes.

Here is what I had in my final document:

475th FG

431st FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 24/0/24
432nd FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 12/0/24
433rd FS 38G 4/14/43 San D SWPAC 12/0/24

You are right - those revised dates do look better given the unit histories.

Andrew

I respectfully disagree.

"Air Force Combat Units of World War II" (Mauer, Mauer (ed.): Air Force Combat Units of World War II. Office of Air Force History 1983 ) puts the activation date of 475th FG to 5/14/43. "Combat Squadrons of the Air Force World War II" (Mauer, Mauer (ed.): Combat Squadrons of the Air Force World War II. Albert F. Simpson Historical Research Center & Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982) also puts the activation date of the individual squadrons to 5/14/43.

If the squadrons were indeed paper units at this point, all the more reason to use the later arrival date.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: timtom
I respectfully disagree.

"Air Force Combat Units of World War II" (Mauer, Mauer (ed.): Air Force Combat Units of World War II. Office of Air Force History 1983 ) puts the activation date of 475th FG to 5/14/43. "Combat Squadrons of the Air Force World War II" (Mauer, Mauer (ed.): Combat Squadrons of the Air Force World War II. Albert F. Simpson Historical Research Center & Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982) also puts the activation date of the individual squadrons to 5/14/43.

If the squadrons were indeed paper units at this point, all the more reason to use the later arrival date.

But is that activation date for Australia or the USA?

Since in this game shipping from the USA to Australia can be interdicted, I prefer to start these squadrons in the USA and have the player have to ship them to Australia (if that is where they want them to go), rather than have them start in Australia itself. I am presuming that the men, equipment and aircraft for these squadrons did actually originate in the USA, and get shipped to Australia via the Pacific, so please correct me if I am wrong.

Andrew

[worr]

ORIGINAL: timtom


I respectfully disagree.

timtom you need to read my post again.

I have the same reference, but you'll find "Lighting Strikes: The 475th Fighter Group in the Pacific War, 1943-1945," Ronald W. Yoshino a more detailed reference.

Worr, out

[timtom]

Worr,

As you know, Mauer supports an May 14th arrival. I read you post to suggest an April 14th arrival date. This is how it was in CHS 1.60. You actually have both dates in your post, so I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting.

As you know, Mauer's work is rather lacking in detail, for obvious reasons. Anything you could add from more detailed material would be greatly appreciated. Post #22 of this thread tm.asp?m=1152981 is a review of the CHS 1.60 USAAF fighter squadron OOB. I'm afraid many of the CHS 2.0x changes have their genesis here (not as many as I'd like, though [;)]). Any critique is welcome, just bear in that it isn't a bald statement of the historical OOB, but an attempt to squeeze same into the restraining harness of the WitP system.

Andrew,

Mauer just places 475 FG and its sqds at Amberley as of 430514. If I understand Worr correctly, it was either a paper unit or without planes/pilots. In the latter case, it could of course be represented by having it arrive in Oz sans planes. One thing that does seem certain is that it didn't see combat until August.

[DuckofTindalos]

Hmmm, is it even possible to activate an air unit in WitP without aircraft?

[timtom]

No, you need a minimum of 1 aircraft, damaged or otherwise. Close enough, though, to my mind.

[DuckofTindalos]

Didn't think you could do that.

"Yes General, we have one P-38 ready and 71 in boxes..."

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: timtom
Andrew,

Mauer just places 475 FG and its sqds at Amberley as of 430514. If I understand Worr correctly, it was either a paper unit or without planes/pilots. In the latter case, it could of course be represented by having it arrive in Oz sans planes. One thing that does seem certain is that it didn't see combat until August.

Part of the difficulty in knowing how to handle these squadrons is the fact that they were activated in Australia. These squadrons have always started in San Diego in CHS. In this case, if they are activated in Australia in mid May in RL, then a San Diego arrival date of April makse sense, as it then allows for transit time to Australia.

If the planes arrived in Australia significantly later than the air/ground crews then it gets more difficult to know how to handle them. We could start the squadrons with one plane in Australia, but would they have been activated there, and would their aircraft been sent there, if the strategic situation was different than in RL? Possibly not.

We could perhaps still start them in San Diego, but with only 1 plane. But if there are numbers of P-38Gs in the pool at the time they arrive on map, they might fill up fairly quickly anyway. This might be the best solution, however. And in this case the arrival date in April rather than May still makes sense.

I am open to further suggestions.

Andrew

[worr]

ORIGINAL: timtom

Worr,

As you know, Mauer supports an May 14th arrival. I read you post to suggest an April 14th arrival date. This is how it was in CHS 1.60. You actually have both dates in your post, so I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting.

OK, you are right. My post assumes some prior conversations.

What I had done originally was simply to post up what was currently in the game. Hence the April 14th date was posted not as my suggestion but only as a point of reference of what was currently in the game. Sometimes people talk of changing something but without knowing what was before I cannot figure out the impact on the game. So that's why I put that in there.

So with my threads on the P-38 and P-47 I began with what was already in the game and then footnoted changes below.

My guess is someone knew that they were active in Australia by June 1943 and then just backed things up from there to allow time to traverse the Pacific and unpack the birds from crates.

Instead, what we'll have with CHS 2.04 is the 475th FG up and nearly ready to go 6/26 and when I say "nearly ready" because there will still be some aircraft missing and that will have to come from other surplus. All other fighter squadrons will have to come into the game from the states via shipping and thus need to be unpacked and repaired...and pilots trained up to whatever standards you may have before committed to combat. Almost half of the pilots for the 475th FG came from existing squadrons in the 5th AF. So it will have a better experience level than just pulling pilots straight from the 1943 pool.

The 475th FG was the most successful FG in the PTO. They had a kill to combat losses ratio of 16:1.

I had these changes in a first draft, but in my "final document" it had dropped out again from a simple mistake. I did a cut n paste over some other material and the change dropped out. So when I posted my "final document" it was to show the mistake not the change.

Another thing about how this works in CHS is the 475th will have P38Gs before they are generally available in the game unless you convert some squadrons. This represents the history of this FG which was never up to full strength and was always waiting for new planes coming from a very long supply chain in the states.

BTW...I changed P-38 production numbers based upon what was coming into theater not upon what was being made at the factory....as the ETO pulled away these fighters first and left only a drip, drip, drip of supply for much of 1943.

If we put every squadron in the game into action, especially a high impact trio of squadrons from this FG, on the day of activation you might get a very slanted game. While that may work for the IJA, or IJN, the USAAF had a more complicated problem activating squadrons and then getting them combat ready all because of the long supply trail. I like to work from the activation date and then toward the first combat patrol date...and if the spread is wide then you can have a paper tiger as a real tiger in the game.

[worr]

BTW...when I say "active" I'm not meaning "activated" There is a difference.
 
Another helpful reference is General Kenny's 5th AF own memoirs of the war. I believe they are posted online.
 
But here is the helfpul quote from Yoshino:
 
"The activation of the 47th FG on 15 May the next year partially answered those pressing needs. Activation however, guaranteed nothing. It only triggered the first moves in what was usually the slow creation of a unit.
 
The first difficult step after activation was assembling personnel to man that unit...Because it had formed outside the continent, the group began began in a fragmented state. This bore fruit both bitter and sweet. Cadre and new recruits took about a month before they met and began the process of forming a team. On the positive side, the neophytes of the 475th could not have asked for better leaders and teachers...Among this assemblage was a core of men, members of a scattering of squadrons, now re-equpped and reconsituted after their bloody nightmare over Java, who became collectively and respectfully know as 'Java men.' Merged together, veteran and neophyte began to form the group during their Amberly days.
 
...Getting an air group in war resembled a caterpillar slow, halting, with the feet at the back patiently waiting for those at the front to move forward. By 26 June 1943 the stateside contingent arrived at Amberly Field, just outside Brisbane, fresh from the 22nd Replacement Central Depot. Theree weeks later the remainder of the group withdrew from New Guinea and merged with the newcomers at Amberly. Together they began to put things right.'" [emphasis mine]
 
 

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: worr

Another thing about how this works in CHS is the 475th will have P38Gs before they are generally available in the game. 6/43 vs. 10/43). This represents the history of this FG which was never up to full strength and was always waiting for new planes coming from a very long supply chain in the states. So starting this squadron with 1 plane will nix this idea until October.

In CHS 2.03, P-38G's become available 10/42, P-38J's 9/43. I'm not necesarily in favour of the 1-plane solution, just raising it as a possibly.

ORIGINAL: worr

If we put every squadron in the game into action, especially a high impact trio of squadrons from this FG, on the day of activation you might get a very slanted game. While that may work for the IJA, or IJN, the USAAF had a more complicated problem activating squadrons and then getting them combat ready all because of the long supply trail. I like to work from the activation date and then toward the first combat patrol date...and if the spread is wide then you can have a paper tiger as a real tiger in the game.

In CHS 2.03, arrival dates usually corrosponds to the historical activation date. As you say, the effect of this is to make units available sometimes up to six months or more before they historically joined combat. The reasoning behind this (I guess) is rooted in the problems around representing the West Coast strength and the more generalised problem that the historical OOB is necesarily tied to the historical actuality, which of course can't be expected to be replicated in any one game - or, in simple terms, how to represent that the US could have made more forces available in the PTO had things gone worse than they did (a distinct possibility in the world of WitP)?

Using the activation date further absolves the researcher from making guestimates on when exactly a given unit should be considered combat ready. Date of first combat obviously won't do. Last known stateside date isn't in itself an indication of combat readiness and even if it was presumably wouldn't preclude a unit from being used in a crisis.

I don't necesarily agree with the generally early arrival dates for the reason you cited, although I like to believe that I appreciate the reasoning behind them. One solution I've suggested is to be generous during the first 12-18 months, less generous after that.

[worr]

Thanks timtom. I agree.
 
The P-38 in the PTO is a unique story, especially when you consider this was the first FG formed on foreign soil. Unlike the P-40E or P-39D it was fought over by the theater commanders. General Eiaker wanted them in England, and the MTO found them highly desirable as well for the invasion of North Africa. There were several months in 1943 when the spicket was complely shut off and the 5th AAF had to make due with the 38s they had. Then afterwards in 1943 it was renewed.
 
You can make small changes in the P-40E and the P-39D squadrons and not really affect the game too much. But the P-38 is a high impact player, so I tended to be more conservative. Does that make sense?
 
Either way, the first combat dates for the 475th are much later than May....working out of Port Morsbey around Aug/Sept.

[worr]

ORIGINAL: timtom

In CHS 2.03, P-38G's become available 10/42, P-38J's 9/43. I'm not necesarily in favour of the 1-plane solution, just raising it as a possibly.

I'm not sure what problem it is solving.

All squadrons come into the game with some planes and then pull from the pool otherwise. I simply followed this same procedure. I don't think it is logical, but it is consistent.

[Andrew Brown]

Well I am learning a lot about these squadrons, bu tI still am not sure how they should be handled.

The first question, from which everything else derives, is whether they should appear in Australia or the USA.

Andrew

[DuckofTindalos]

Well, if they were in fact stood up in Australia, then they should appear there. The problem, of course, is that they'll fill out with aircraft unrealistically fast. Too bad we can't set Air Groups to reorganise like we can LCU's.