No more Light TD's

[Yogi Yohan]

Why is there three classes of TD's (Light, Medium, Heavy) when there is only two classes of tanks?

The only TD's based on light tank chassis would be the JPz-I (PzKpfw-I chassis), the Marder II (PzKpfw-II chassis) and the SU-76 (T-70 chassis). But these tank classes are considered "medium" in WIR, so it does not make much sense to have their TD derivates classified as "light".

I think it would be better to drop the Light TD class and reclassify all the TD's built on a WIR-medium tank chassis as "Medium TD's" and those on a Heavy Tank Chassis (Elephant, Jagdtiger, SU-152)as "Heavy TD's". That way it would be easier to take advantage of existing pools.

This can easily be done with WIRED.

[Tom1939]

HI!

Yes, I agree completely. I had an idea like this but it was more drastic: one class only tank destroyer. But your idea seem more balanced.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
I think it would be better to drop the Light TD class and reclassify all the TD's built on a WIR-medium tank chassis as "Medium TD's" and those on a Heavy Tank Chassis (Elephant, Jagdtiger, SU-152)as "Heavy TD's".

Perhaps the issue here is about history. Yes, light/medium/heavy for TDs but only medium/heavy for tanks might not sound right, but what if that was how they historically did it, i.e. German millitary organization recognized a light TD class but no light tank class?

[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

[Yogi Yohan]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Perhaps the issue here is about history. Yes, light/medium/heavy for TDs but only medium/heavy for tanks might not sound right, but what if that was how they historically did it, i.e. German millitary organization recognized a light TD class but no light tank class?

[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

But they did recoginze a light tank class. In the original PzDiv organization there were Light Tank Companies in the Tank Batallions. Later light tanks were used in recon units. The Soviet Union also had light tank classes.

On the other hand, I have heard of Jagdpanzer Abteilungen, Panzerjäger Abteilungen and Schwere Jagdpanzer Abteilungen, but never of Lechte Panzerjäger/Jagdpanzer Abteilungen. So it would seem to me the Germans at least recognized only two classes of TD - Heavy and "Normal".

So if history was the guideline, it would have been better to introduce light tanks and drop light TD's.

Even should the light TD designation be kept, some changes would have to be made. To just quote the most blatant example, why is the JPz IV (based on a Pz IV chassis and armed with a 75L48 or 75L70) considered "medium" while the Nashorn, also on a Pz IV chassis, but armed with an 88L71 be considered "Light"? Even considering differences in armour, this makes no sense.

The crux of the matter is that the vast majority of JPz batallions are deployed from the start of the 1941 campaign. If these are equipped exclusively with Light TD's then later on the medium TD's have very few units to go to. With Computer factory control they are upgraded automatically, but not with Human Factory control. And even with Computer control, you'll get vast pools of unused Light TD's while the medium TD batallions are starved for units.

Some "off" designations could perhaps be kept, ie the Jagdpanther as a Heavy TD, just to keep things real. The Jagdpanther was only produced in rather small numbers, and we would not want to encourage a wholesale substitution of JPz-IV/Hetzer production for Jagdpanther, would we?

[ May 11, 2001: Message edited by: Yogi Yohan ]

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
why is the JPz IV (based on a Pz IV chassis and armed with a 75L48 or 75L70) considered "medium" while the Nashorn, also on a Pz IV chassis, but armed with an 88L71 be considered "Light"? Even considering differences in armour, this makes no sense.

On the contrary, the differences in armor is the answer to your question I believe. That is what makes a Nashorn a light TD with weak armor and a PzIV is a medium with better armor. I don't think "light" has anything to do with the cannon, its the weight of the armor. Heavy armor means a larger engine to move all that armor around, and perhaps changes in the chassis to adjust for that weight as well. The chassis may indeed be the same basic design, but the superstructure of the TD decides whether its "light" or not.

[Yogi Yohan]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

On the contrary, the differences in armor is the answer to your question I believe. That is what makes a Nashorn a light TD with weak armor and a PzIV is a medium with better armor. I don't think "light" has anything to do with the cannon, its the weight of the armor. Heavy armor means a larger engine to move all that armor around, and perhaps changes in the chassis to adjust for that weight as well. The chassis may indeed be the same basic design, but the superstructure of the TD decides whether its "light" or not.

This is unhistorical. On the contrary, the Germans classified assault guns and TD's after the main armament. 88mm were heavy, 75 medium. (see Alan Clark's "Barbarossa", ch 16, regarding the definition of Guderians powers as inspector general of Panzer forces.)

The weight of the gun is also considerable, which is why not all TD's were equipped with 88's. The weight of the Nashorn was about 24.400 kg and the JPz IV 25.800 kg, almost the same, in spite of the heavier armour of the JPz IV.

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
On the contrary, the Germans classified assault guns and TD's after the main armament.

The weight of the gun is also considerable, which is why not all TD's were equipped with 88's. The weight of the Nashorn was about 24.400 kg and the JPz IV 25.800 kg, almost the same, in spite of the heavier armour of the JPz IV.

Then why do they classify lightly armored TDs as "light"? Are you saying it was GG's mistake to classify TD's based apparently on defensive strength, instead of the way Germans did it? Clearly, were we going by the cannon size alone, a Nashorn would have to be classified as a heavy.

[Yogi Yohan]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Then why do they classify lightly armored TDs as "light"? Are you saying it was GG's mistake to classify TD's based apparently on defensive strength, instead of the way Germans did it? Clearly, were we going by the cannon size alone, a Nashorn would have to be classified as a heavy.

I made that point before: I have never heard of Light Jagdpanzers or Panzerjägers anywhere but WIR, only "normal" and heavy. That's half of the reason I want Light TD's to go. The other half is for going around game problems (ie, the human player cannot upgrade the way the computer does, you got to use computer factory control).