Did you know that ...?

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sat May 19, 2001 6:43 pm

... attaker's power is significanly reduced when defending leader organises good defense?

... defender's power is horribly reduced when its HQs has zero OPs?

... independent units are not the subject of bombardment fire?

later add-ons:

... non-elite units add 5 to their experience each week if it is less than 80-(year-1941)*5 for Germans and 50+(year-1941)*5 for Soviets

... attacker's power has a chance of being halved if its HQ has low OPs. This chance grows gradualy. Lower are OPs, higher is a chance.

*phew*
a lot of experimenting today

[ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat May 19, 2001 8:06 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
... attaker's power is significanly reduced when defending leader organises good defense?

... defender's power is horribly reduced when its HQs has zero OPs?

... independent units are not the subject of bombardment fire?

[ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

The first two make sense, although I wasn't sure how bad the second is, but I have seen it when below even 5-10 it seems like. On the third, could you explain more, Mist? I just ran a test by stripping a unit down to just independent artillery and anti-tank equipment, no squads or tanks, and it definitely suffered losses to a bombardment attack. Are you talking of something else than what I tested? Or do you mean bombardment during a regular combat? Anyway, more details will help in tracking down the problem. Thanks!

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sat May 19, 2001 8:35 pm

I have tested it in camp'43 on the Kursk bulge. Set both human control. Put only tank/artilery sub-unuts in the panzer koprs. Attack. Set scenario edit when Soviet turm comes. Go to attacking panzer korps and look inside. All units have 99% readiness. That made me to conclude that sub-units did not suffer from bombardment at all. Though, tank batalions were hit by AT-fire. Not sure about assault phase and artilerry losses.
BTW: I've just done more serious testing of defender's combat efficiency, depending on OPs. It depends on OPs approximately as linear function when OPS are below 50. It makes special supply theme much more SPECIAL

[ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat May 19, 2001 9:42 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
I have tested it in camp'43 on the Kursk bulge. Set both human control. Put only tank/artilery sub-unuts in the panzer koprs. Attack. Set scenario edit when Soviet turm comes. Go to attacking panzer korps and look inside. All units have 99% readiness. That made me to conclude that sub-units did not suffer from bombardment at all. Though, tank batalions were hit by AT-fire. Not sure about assault phase and artilerry losses.
BTW: I've just done more serious testing of defender's combat efficiency, depending on OPs. It depends on OPs as a approximateli as linear function when OPS are below 50. It makes special supply theme much more SPECIAL

[ May 19, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Thanks for the information, Mist. Your comments about the Ops points effecting combat for defenders when below 50 makes sense from what I have seen. Great that you checked it out in detail enough to see it even close to 50.

On the other issue, I have just played quite a bit with it. From what I saw in various combinations, mainly with artillery, tank or Stug units attacking, I had artillery losses from bombardment always, and afv losses from anti tank fire, or whatever. I also saved the game and checked the readiness as you said, and saw readiness of around 80, down from 99, in the Soviet turn. So there is still something different between what you and I are doing. I will keep looking at it. Thanks.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sun May 20, 2001 3:17 am

Originally posted by RickyB:

On the other issue, I have just played quite a bit with it. From what I saw in various combinations, mainly with artillery, tank or Stug units attacking, I had artillery losses from bombardment always, and afv losses from anti tank fire, or whatever. I also saved the game and checked the readiness as you said, and saw readiness of around 80, down from 99, in the Soviet turn.

I should also mention that I removed all aircraft from defending HQs and used static attack.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sun May 20, 2001 6:12 am

Originally posted by Mist:

I should also mention that I removed all aircraft from defending HQs and used static attack.

Thanks, Mist. That did it. The various units are all subject to losses during the appropriate phases from what I can see, but these independent units do not suffer any readiness losses during combat. They do drop from movement but NOT combat. Good deal.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu May 24, 2001 2:42 am

No problem, Ricky! Here is another couple of features that were revealed to me last days.

... artilery strength is not added neither to attacking nor to defending strength.

... attacking strength is reduced by 25% if defending leader manages to organise good defence and increased by 30% if defending leader fails to organise good defence.

Everything seems ok to me, except that IMHO there should be possibility of organising good offensive and 30% should not be added by default as they currently are.

[ May 23, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Thu May 24, 2001 2:47 pm

Originally posted by Mist:
... artilery strength is not added neither to attacking nor to defending strength.

... attacking strength is reduced by 25% if defending leader manages to organise good defence and increased by 30% if defending leader fails to organise good defence.

Can you tell us how you found these things out? With the artillery for example, the TRACES.TXT file shows in the example combat I ran that the artillery battalions are being added to the combat total.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu May 24, 2001 8:00 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Can you tell us how you found these things out? With the artillery for example, the TRACES.TXT file shows in the example combat I ran that the artillery battalions are being added to the combat total.

If artillery attacks then atk strength is calculated as zero. If it attacks with support of infantry, then atk strength is equal to strength of infantry. I've made many tests, but of course, may be I am missing something tricky. What is traces.txt file you're refering to?
As for leadership. I've made dozens of tests by attacking very weak unit(for it could not be able to inflict any significant damage by assault/bombardment) by couple of thousands of infantry squads dirrected from HQ with 50 OPs. One of many examples is following: Attacking force had 1880 effective squads. ATK value was either ~1405(good defence), or ~2440(poor defence).
First one is 25% less than 1880, second one is 30% greater than 1880. I've never seen final ATK strength equal 1880, as it is in combat formula included in manual.

[ May 24, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Thu May 24, 2001 10:04 pm

Originally posted by Mist:

If artillery attacks then atk strength is calculated as zero. If it attacks with support of infantry, then atk strength is equal to strength of infantry. I've made many tests, but of course, may be I am missing something tricky. What is traces.txt file you're refering to?

Hey Mist,

Great tests. The displayed combat value is the calculated combat value then divided by a factor of 10 or 100 for the CV display. Artillery units are low in artillery numbers compared to a full division, and based on what you and Ed both say, I would guess that the artillery CV is less than 1 and so shows 0. I could easily be wrong though. If I have time I will dig into it further.

The traces.txt file is a debugging file that we get for our testing, but it is turned off in the release version. It creates a really huge text file that is hard to find things in, but it does show a lot of what is going on during a turn to help find things that are happening.

Thanks for the info.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Thu May 24, 2001 11:03 pm

Yes, Ricky, it can be just below 1. But AT-guns also have low CV and their defensive value is still equal to their number.

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Mon May 28, 2001 9:42 pm

Sshhhhh.. you're reading top secret information!

... each recon vehicle adds 1 to def value, though they are't the subject of AT fire when defending
test:try to attack ready elite unit consisting of 10 squads and 136 recons which is directed by HQ with OPs>=50

... recon losses are added to AFV losses only when their unit surrenders/shatters
test: try to attack strong defender with unit consisting of 10 squads and 136 recons and look at its AFV losses. then try to shatter/make to surrender unit with recons. Look at its AFV losses

... only amount of troops remaining after bombardment,artilery and assault phases is added to losses when unit surrenders/shatters
test:easy to check by shattering/making to surrender single-division unit

... attack strength is divided by 3 during mud
test: try it with single batalion/division which are easy to calculate

... tanks have attack multiplier equal to 3 instead of 4 which is mentioned in manual(what a *FUN*!)
test: try it with single panzer/tank batalion which is easy to calculate

all this info is obtained with the abcense of aircraft on both sides.
all this info is the result of experimenting with ingame editor.

[ May 28, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]