Gamey use of paratroops?

[larryfulkerson]

Just before you move your units, if you have no ideal uses for your paratroops you might consider setting all your available fighters on air superiority and flying your paratroops from one end of the map to the other, all under protection of your fighters of course. The enemy interceptors will attempt to shoot down the paratroops and your air superiority fighters can shoot down the enemy interceptors. The losses can become quite lopsided:

[Erik2]

Not gamey in my book.

1) You can have a perfectly good reason to move those paras to a different field, although just taking the scenic tour is a bit unrealistic.

2) You do risk your paras using them as bait and you will risk not having them available later at full strength when a good paradrop opportunity is present. Also, if the scenario is well-designed the airtransports will only be available a certain time period, so you better use them wisely when you have them.

3) Your adversary has put his fighters on air superiority even presumably knowing that the enemy fighters are far stronger
The fighters are thus ordered to intercept.

Erik

[Curtis Lemay]

I sometimes wonder if paradrops should be conducted during the combat phase rather than during the movement phase. As it stands, the first unit dropped can (if it survives) use its movement to recon safe drop sites for all subsequent units to be dropped. Now that's gamey!

What if drops worked so that once a site for a unit to drop was selected (as now), instead of moving the unit to that hex, it just setup the drop to occur in that hex in the next combat phase. And drops could only be setup in the first phase of a turn. Then all units would have to drop into the fog-of-war conditions, as real units would.

[Industrial]

real world paradrops often occured in waves also, for example Operation Market Garden had 3 waves of paradrops sheduled over 3 days, with the first wave securing the drop zone for the following waves... therefor I don't see a problem with the current system

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

real world paradrops often occured in waves also, for example Operation Market Garden had 3 waves of paradrops sheduled over 3 days, with the first wave securing the drop zone for the following waves... therefor I don't see a problem with the current system

But that's another paradrop - in another turn. As it stands now, though, the first unit of the first wave (or the first unit to suvive) secures the drop zone for all other units in the first wave.

[Industrial]

and what's with 3,5 day or even 1 week / turn scenarios? Granted, there is a bit of abstraction necessary, but that's unavoidable in a IGOYOUGO game system.

Its the same as with normal movement and combat, moving a unit for its full MP allowance to encircel anoother unit in a 1-week scenario would represent 1 week of continual advances, but if you than attack that unit with one who started directly next to the now encirceled unit you will attack at the first day of the week, with a unit who will only arrive at the end of the week already there and blocking the escape of the attacked unit
And after the combat is over you can use your combat unit to advance even further, because it still has 80% of its movement points left

[golden delicious]

A good stock house rule is to require the player to make all his airdrops at the beginning of the turn, before moving any units by land. Also pretty easily enforced in PBEM.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

Its the same as with normal movement and combat, moving a unit for its full MP allowance to encircel anoother unit in a 1-week scenario would represent 1 week of continual advances, but if you than attack that unit with one who started directly next to the now encirceled unit you will attack at the first day of the week, with a unit who will only arrive at the end of the week already there and blocking the escape of the attacked unit
And after the combat is over you can use your combat unit to advance even further, because it still has 80% of its movement points left

It is the same problem- but it's worse with airdrops since, unlike ordinary land operations, you can't make them at fifteen minutes' notice. They need careful preparation and planning.

[Industrial]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
It is the same problem- but it's worse with airdrops since, unlike ordinary land operations, you can't make them at fifteen minutes' notice. They need careful preparation and planning.

The careful preperations and planing don't concern the actual drop, but more the strategic planing surrounding the drop. Usually you drop your paras behind enemy lines, so plans need to exist how to relief/supply them, but that aspect isn't modeled in game terms. The actualy dropping could indeed be planed and executed in a day, after all you only need to load the men and their little material into planes and off they go. If you than have no plan of how to resupply or reinforce your paras, well, thats too bad for them, right? Buts its the same really as having a panzer division breaking through enemy lines if an opportunity arises, you can plan such a move for weeks in advance, but you just as easily can do it on the fly.

The fact that such a drop is seen as too risky in real life shouldnt prevent the player from doing it nevertheless

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Industrial

real world paradrops often occured in waves also, for example Operation Market Garden had 3 waves of paradrops sheduled over 3 days, with the first wave securing the drop zone for the following waves... therefor I don't see a problem with the current system

But that's another paradrop - in another turn. As it stands now, though, the first unit of the first wave (or the first unit to suvive) secures the drop zone for all other units in the first wave.

The abstraction here is that some number of the dropping forces are going to be fairly dispersed, and too busy regrouping to take full part in the battles, or exploiting out to cover more ground. Don't look at it as a sequential representation of units drop, secure drop zone, so that followup troops magically arrive before them.

It should be seen as more along the lines of some proportion of the troops who are dropping nearly simultaneously are too disorganized to be of use. The fewer forces you have dropping, then the higher proportion of them that will be busy with regrouping, securing the area, etc, and unable to participate in followup operations.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

The actualy dropping could indeed be planed and executed in a day, after all you only need to load the men and their little material into planes and off they go.

Having set aside the planes, rested the men, given them a thorough review of the area they'll be dropping into, etc.

In TOAW, the longest length a single combat round can be is 16 hours- probably not quite enough for all of the above. Most of the time it's going to be a lot shorter than that, and at the scales which usually accompany those 16 hour rounds, you'd be airdropping regiments or at least battalions. Not a trivial exercise.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

and what's with 3,5 day or even 1 week / turn scenarios? Granted, there is a bit of abstraction necessary, but that's unavoidable in a IGOYOUGO game system.

It's not unavoidable if it was revised as I suggested. One combat round in even a full-week turn is 1/10th of a week. So subsequent waves come on another round. Even that seems gamey since the enemy would not have been able to react. But perhaps multiple drops per turn could be allowed if the interval has been at least 1 day - every two rounds at full-week, every 3 rounds at half-week, start of turn only on full day and shorter.

Its the same as with normal movement and combat, moving a unit for its full MP allowance to encircel anoother unit in a 1-week scenario would represent 1 week of continual advances, but if you than attack that unit with one who started directly next to the now encirceled unit you will attack at the first day of the week, with a unit who will only arrive at the end of the week already there and blocking the escape of the attacked unit
And after the combat is over you can use your combat unit to advance even further, because it still has 80% of its movement points left

So, because that's unrealistic therefore airdrops should be kept unrealistic too?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

A good stock house rule is to require the player to make all his airdrops at the beginning of the turn, before moving any units by land. Also pretty easily enforced in PBEM.

Even that's not enough. The first unit to land gives recon info about the six surrounding hexes, allowing subsequent units in that wave to adjust their landing accordingly. And that's assuming the unit doesn't move around some, after landing, reconing the entire target area.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Even that's not enough. The first unit to land gives recon info about the six surrounding hexes, allowing subsequent units in that wave to adjust their landing accordingly. And that's assuming the unit doesn't move around some, after landing, reconing the entire target area.

Well your suggested change is all well and good. But for the time being, the house rule I mentioned is the best we can do short of rather cumbersome rules about planning drops in advance (which I use for GS3 anyway), and fixes the main part of the problem.

[Industrial]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

A good stock house rule is to require the player to make all his airdrops at the beginning of the turn, before moving any units by land. Also pretty easily enforced in PBEM.

Even that's not enough. The first unit to land gives recon info about the six surrounding hexes, allowing subsequent units in that wave to adjust their landing accordingly. And that's assuming the unit doesn't move around some, after landing, reconing the entire target area.

But in reality recon planes could/would be ordered to in detail scout the intended landing zone to make sure no enemy forces are there, you can't do that in TOAW. In TOAW you have your theather recon level and can only hope that the intended landing spot is revealed during your jump turn, so that you don't have to jump into an 'unknown' hex on top of a Panzer Division. So as soon as I get this improved recon ability I have no problem with having to plan all jumps on turn one and than having them executed during the first actual combat turn, but until that's implemented I'll go with the current system [8D]

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

A good stock house rule is to require the player to make all his airdrops at the beginning of the turn, before moving any units by land. Also pretty easily enforced in PBEM.

Even that's not enough. The first unit to land gives recon info about the six surrounding hexes, allowing subsequent units in that wave to adjust their landing accordingly. And that's assuming the unit doesn't move around some, after landing, reconing the entire target area.

But in reality recon planes could/would be ordered to in detail scout the intended landing zone to make sure no enemy forces are there, you can't do that in TOAW. In TOAW you have your theather recon level and can only hope that the intended landing spot is revealed during your jump turn, so that you don't have to jump into an 'unknown' hex on top of a Panzer Division. So as soon as I get this improved recon ability I have no problem with having to plan all jumps on turn one and than having them executed during the first actual combat turn, but until that's implemented I'll go with the current system [8D]

Those recon planes failed to find the II SS Panzer Corps in Arnhem, despite that location's critical importance. Theater recon models recon planes and local intel. If you disagree with a scenario's TR level, that's an issue with the designer, but it sounds like you're overestimating it. It's certainly no justification for circumventing all fog-of-war altogether.

[Industrial]

No, recon planes found the german tanks, but the reports were dismissed by the allied commanders in charge as irrelevant.
And theather recon is random, it can reveal hexes hundredts of km behind the front while leaving critical locations close to the front unknown. So unless this recon model is improved, I stay by my previous statement.

You cant enforce strong rules on a mission that depends heavily on good recon with such a weak recon model as we have it in TOAW at the moment.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Those recon planes failed to find the II SS Panzer Corps in Arnhem, despite that location's critical importance.

To be fair, these units weren't at the LZ. In fact, the only instance I can think of in which paratroopers dropped literally on top of an enemy unit was some Soviet Operation which the Germans had gotten wind of in advance.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Industrial

No, recon planes found the german tanks, but the reports were dismissed by the allied commanders in charge as irrelevant.
And theather recon is random, it can reveal hexes hundredts of km behind the front while leaving critical locations close to the front unknown. So unless this recon model is improved, I stay by my previous statement.

You cant enforce strong rules on a mission that depends heavily on good recon with such a weak recon model as we have it in TOAW at the moment.

No member of Monty's intel staff walked into his HQ and told him that their intel assessment was that there was an SS Panzer Corps in Arnhem. Therefore, from the perspective of the player (representing Monty) it was not detected. Spotting a few tanks is not the same.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Those recon planes failed to find the II SS Panzer Corps in Arnhem, despite that location's critical importance.

To be fair, these units weren't at the LZ. In fact, the only instance I can think of in which paratroopers dropped literally on top of an enemy unit was some Soviet Operation which the Germans had gotten wind of in advance.

That was just luck, not because the Panzer Corps had been detected, though. And what constitutes "dropped on top of" is scale dependent in TOAW. At 10km/hex, most drops are "on top of" something - meaning they are almost immediately engaged. Probably not uncommon to drop within 2.5km of something, especially in a close drop like D-Day.

And note there is another benefit of what I'm suggesting. Once you've made the paradym shift to handling paradrops as combat instead of movement, then it isn't necessary to RBC any enemy forces that are dropped on - just have regular combat instead (with an appropriate paradrop penalty of course). The hex still has to be cleared, but the requirement to do so is much less severe. Overwhelming force necessary to RBC is no longer needed, and all units landing in the hex under combat can combine in the attack.