Production management

MagnusOlsson · Post by **MagnusOlsson** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 5:42 pm

The German player can alter production in Prague, but not Budapest; Vienna and Florence but not Rome and Genoa. It does not seem coherent.
IMHO the German player should be able to change all air and tank factories; it is not a goddamn democracy, is it??

Also, it should be possible to select the italian aircrafts for production everywhere, or they should be removed from the list.

/Magnus

Dan in Toledo · Post by **Dan in Toledo** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 8:17 pm

Keep in mind that the Germans had direct control over Prague. Remember they occupied Czechoslovakia in early 1939. Basicly it became part of Greater Germany. Hungary was always an ally. Italy was the same way. The Axis never, ever coordinater their production the way the allies did. Everyone knows that the Italian tanks suck so it would make sense to change their production to German tanks. But that wouldnt be historical would it?

MagnusOlsson · Post by **MagnusOlsson** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 10:00 pm

I agree about the historical correct viewpoint, but why then is it possible to change the Macci 202 to fx FW 190?
Also, if I am commanding the italian, roumanian and hungarian troops; shouldn't I have the same influence over the production in those countries?

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 12:32 am

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:
I agree about the historical correct viewpoint, but why then is it possible to change the Macci 202 to fx FW 190?
Also, if I am commanding the italian, roumanian and hungarian troops; shouldn't I have the same influence over the production in those countries?

So, you propose to add one more great unhistorical factor into the game?

I think it is all too much already when Finns can capture Leningrad or Romanians fighting in Afrika or garrisoning rail lines along the east front.

MagnusOlsson · Post by **MagnusOlsson** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 12:55 am

Originally posted by Mist:

So, you propose to add one more great unhistorical factor into the game? I think it is all too much already when Finns can capture Leningrad or Romanians fighting in Afrika or garrisoning rail lines along the east front.

Yes, I guess so... But I am also prepared to argue for removing some other unhistorical factors, like the ones you mention.

In any case, the Florence factory is an anomality. If you are to allow changes in production in Italy, then it should be in all of Italy, unless I am unaware (and I very well might be) of some factor regarding the Macci 202 plant in Florence that somehow puts it under German control.

I don't know; maybe it is of no great importance. It just annoys me.

/MO

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 1:52 am

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:

Yes, I guess so... But I am also prepared to argue for removing some other unhistorical factors, like the ones you mention.

In any case, the Florence factory is an anomality. If you are to allow changes in production in Italy, then it should be in all of Italy, unless I am unaware (and I very well might be) of some factor regarding the Macci 202 plant in Florence that somehow puts it under German control.

I don't know; maybe it is of no great importance. It just annoys me.

/MO

I wish you success Magnus. You want to remove one thing from the game, add another. And first thing is hard(?) to do without of risk to make new bugs and second is terribly unhistorical. You may be lucky. If you realy
wish to do that, then you must study minor allies production capabilities. I have impression that they are greatly overestimated in WiR because italian tanks flood my pool in 1942. Could minor allies produce German equipment in reasonable amounts? You know, the cost system.. god dam it.. the cost system is purely purely abstract and has one single god damn purpose: to limit production growing speed. So allied equipment is more "expencive"(harder to increase production). If you change M13 factory to produce panthers which cost is "the same" then you will do great unhistorical thing. Same for changing aircraft production.
Fabio(he is from Italia) told me here that Italian aircraft was produced only in very limited amounts and italian tanks were always short even in italian units. So, there is a field of study if you want to change it.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 9:51 am

Originally posted by Mist:
So allied equipment is more "expencive"(harder to increase production). If you change M13 factory to produce panthers which cost is "the same" then you will do great unhistorical thing. Same for changing aircraft production.

There is nothing about the current production system that I like. I am keenly interested in what the production system in War in the Pacific will be, since that will give us a hint at what the production system in Gary's new WIR III will be like.

matt.buttsworth · Post by **matt.buttsworth** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 6:37 pm

Never knew about Florence. That is a bug that should be squelched. Germans should not be able to change Florentine factories or any Italian factories.
Point about Prague is totally correct. It was under German control.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Jul 18, 2001 9:37 am

Originally posted by Matthew Buttsworth:
Never knew about Florence. That is a bug that should be squelched.

Now on the bug list.

Lorenzo from Spain · Post by **Lorenzo from Spain** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:50 pm

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:

IMHO the German player should be able to change .

/Magnus

I´m doing a list of calendar posibilities of production in the game (starting in 1941). Turn to turn, I´m examining the cities production.
Do you are interested on it? I´m in january, 43 (it´s a lot of work)
Some "thinks":
You can do a La-5 factory in 13-September-42; but don´t evolue normally until 11-October-42.
Same with Elefant: available in 10-January-42, don´t evolue until 17-January-42.
The KV-1S, it´s same attack-defense as KV-1E! When you click in any unit of game, or in Ctl-R report.

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 8:57 pm

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:

I´m doing a list of calendar posibilities of production in the game (starting in 1941). Turn to turn, I´m examining the cities production.
Do you are interested on it? I´m in january, 43 (it´s a lot of work)
Some "thinks":
You can do a La-5 factory in 13-September-42; but don´t evolue normally until 11-October-42.
Same with Elefant: available in 10-January-42, don´t evolue until 17-January-42.

The same with many tank types

The KV-1S, it´s same attack-defense as KV-1E! When you click in any unit of game, or in Ctl-R report.

This discussion was in russian Fidonet forum... historicaly (don't kick me hard if I'm wrong

) KV-1S was a little faster than 1E but had worse armor... so there was idea... aaa... what to do with it :

"
cost values
KV 1 7 9/13
KV 1E 7 12/15
KV 1S 6 12/14

by Oleg Bazhenov
"

The cost of KV 1S lover than others to make it more 'attractive' to replace with it other, early versions... at present time there's no sense in modernisation from 1E to 1S...

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Alexey ]

[ July 20, 2001: Message edited by: Alexey ]

jager506 · Post by **jager506** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:41 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

There is nothing about the current production system that I like. I am keenly interested in what the production system in War in the Pacific will be, since that will give us a hint at what the production system in Gary's new WIR III will be like.

Is there really a WIR III in the making and is there a website on the matter?

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:46 pm

manpower drawn from industry should hurt production!

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Jul 21, 2001 11:45 am

Originally posted by Chimera:
Is there really a WIR III in the making and is there a website on the matter?

No official talk about it, other than to say it is in the "developmental work" stage. Gary and company are working on Matrix's UV, then will switch to WitP, so it will be a long while before any serious work starts on it. Matrix isn't going to pick up the new WiRIII, so we have to hope Gary can find a publisher for it.
http://www.2by3games.com/games.htm

Look at "USSR 1941-1945" hex.

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:04 am

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
manpower drawn from industry should hurt production!

That depends. In the US, USSR, and England, women were mobilized to do work men normally did. Germany I'm sure did the same, but in addition, they relied on forced labour mainly from Eastern Europeans.

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

Mist · Post by **Mist** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:36 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

That depends. In the US, USSR, and England, women were mobilized to do work men normally did. Germany I'm sure did the same, but in addition, they relied on forced labour mainly from Eastern Europeans.

Politicaly correct Ed just could not say that Germany used slave labour of men, women and children which were taken by force from conquered teritories. :rolleyes:
Certanly, slaves were not working as best as arians. But on the other side they were very cheap and in large amounts.
If speaking closer the the proposition. SoleSurvivor, how exactly do you propose to implement that hurt of industry in numbers? May be you have any ideas?

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Mist ]

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 3:52 am

In Reality there was Uk-Stellen ("Unabkömmlich", not available for front service, needed otherwise)

The player or the game engine might set the amount of these Uk which results either in an increased army manpower or an increased production capacity. could be realized as a production penalty in percentage. Slave labour never could replaced skilled, loyal and motivated workers.They could compensate but not to a full degree.

g00dd0ggy · Post by **g00dd0ggy** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:19 am

My understanding was that the Germans never did use women much because it did not fit with the National Socialist view of women.

In much the same way as they never geared up properly for war until late 43/early 44 they never properly used their women as a resource.

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 7:58 pm

more or less true!