NKVD Div

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 6:18 pm

Why NKVD Div becomes 'guards rifle' ,IMHO it must became 'guards NKVD' or stay just NKVD division?

Rundstedt · Post by **Rundstedt** » Sun Aug 05, 2001 9:53 pm

Maybe you should ask STAVKA instead? Maybe they didn't feel like writing "NKVD Guards Rifle Division"? Now that's 23 letters, and who wants to write designations like that on marching orders when some Nazia are firing mortar rounds at your HQ?

Just being silly, Rundstedt

SoleSurvivor · Post by **SoleSurvivor** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 1:43 am

In 1943 NKWD was reformed. Special units went to smersch and NKWD was only a securoity police after this split. Thus, I guess their units might have joined the guards

kisslove · Post by **kisslove** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 1:51 am

Originally posted by SoleSurvivor:
In 1943 NKWD was reformed. Special units went to smersch and NKWD was only a securoity police after this split. Thus, I guess their units might have joined the guards

But they became guards in early 42!

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 7:07 am

The Guards designation in WIR is based on experience level. I believe if a unit reaches 80 it is eligible for guard status. From there, I believe it is just how the game handles the "promotion" that results in the NKVD being dropped and Guards added. I think it might get renumbered too, but I am not sure about that.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:16 pm

Originally posted by RickyB:
The Guards designation in WIR is based on experience level. I believe if a unit reaches 80 it is eligible for guard status. From there, I believe it is just how the game handles the "promotion" that results in the NKVD being dropped and Guards added. I think it might get renumbered too, but I am not sure about that.

Yes, the "NKVD" is dropped and the unit is renumbered.

MagnusOlsson · Post by **MagnusOlsson** » Mon Aug 06, 2001 11:15 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Yes, the "NKVD" is dropped and the unit is renumbered.

There's some interesting stuff about this in Anthony Beevor's 'Stalingrad'. The double command (army+comissar) was dropped, reinstated (?) and then dropped again(??). I bet that Mist or someone here knows tons about this. Anyway, having a 'NKVD Guards' unit is, IIRC, not doable, since Guards is from the old, pre-revolution terminology and NKVD is from the newer, communist terminology.

/Magnus

Nikademus · Post by **Nikademus** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:37 am

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:

There's some interesting stuff about this in Anthony Beevor's 'Stalingrad'. The double command (army+comissar) was dropped, reinstated (?) and then dropped again(??). I bet that Mist or someone here knows tons about this. Anyway, having a 'NKVD Guards' unit is, IIRC, not doable, since Guards is from the old, pre-revolution terminology and NKVD is from the newer, communist terminology.

/Magnus

The commisar/army duo command structure proved to be very detrimental to unit morale. More so as the number of defeats began to rise during the German summer offensive in 42.

While Stalin did'nt get quite so unnerved this time out he did begin to sweat. (especially after the retreats continued after his famous "Not another step back" quote)

Commissar's wer'nt eliminated completely but their power was reduced and rank and 'perk' bonuses were reinstituted into the army to better motivate their officers and men.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 1:12 am

Originally posted by MagnusOlsson:
Anyway, having a 'NKVD Guards' unit is, IIRC, not doable, since Guards is from the old, pre-revolution terminology and NKVD is from the newer, communist terminology.

/Magnus

Didn't the "Guards" designation come from the wars with Napoleon? Many countries then had "Guards" units, the best being the French.

MagnusOlsson · Post by **MagnusOlsson** » Tue Aug 07, 2001 1:42 am

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

Didn't the "Guards" designation come from the wars with Napoleon? Many countries then had "Guards" units, the best being the French.

Yes, the way I remember it; Napoleon had body gards that later became a fighting force (much like the development of LAH or indeed the SS in general). Alexander I, who wanted to be the Russian Napoleon, copied the naming conventions. But the term 'Guards Troops' must be as old as military history. (The Swiss Guards, The Svea Livgarde (Sweden) and most certainly there was similiar designated troops in China and Mongolia).
I have very limited knowledge about all this, so please do not take this to the bank.

/Magnus

amatteucci · Post by **amatteucci** » Fri Aug 10, 2001 4:24 pm

The 'Guard' units in the various armies firstly identified the elite troops that were in charge of the protection of the Sovereign. Even if the mopst famous Guard is Napoleon's one the Guards were already present in nearly all European armies (BTW the Tsar didn't copy Napoleon: the Russian guards regiments were created by Peter the Great and also for the French themselves it wasn't a novelty since even in the times of the Ancien Régime there was the "Maison du Roi" with the various guards regiments)
Even today there are some units that still bore this denomination: for example the British regiments of the Houseold Division, the Italian Cuirassiers 'Guardie della Repubblica' etc.

Amedeo

K G von Martinez · Post by **K G von Martinez** » Thu Aug 16, 2001 10:47 am

Magnus,
do you mean it's historically not correct to have guards units in a communist (supposedly classless) society? IRL there were a lot of guards units, at least at the end of WWII, even guards armies, but also guards submarines! Surely that's far from the original meaning of a guards unit to be a sort of protection for a person!