Allied Bombing

wizzi · Post by **wizzi** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 9:37 am

I've been wondering if the limited range of the allied escort fighters has been taken into account. I dont remember the ranges of the allied fighters, but I have understood that their range was limited and in many cases the fighters were unable to escort all the way to target. The germans used this in their favor and waited for the escorts to turn home before attacking the bombers.

-Pasi

Barbos · Post by **Barbos** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 9:55 am

This was a great problem for the 8th Air Force until P-51 arrival in late 1943. The limited range of P-47 allowed them to escort until Wilhelmshaven area (N-W Germany), not as deep into the mainland as used in the game. Most of 1943 raids to Germany's heart were conducted by unescorted "combat boxes" of B-17's which led to high losses. I think the game should reflect the historical fact that P-47 and P-38 appeared over central Germany only in 1944.

The second point: the opening date for Allied bombing. On August 17 of 1942 a few dozens of B-17's escorted by short-range Spitfires first attacked some secondary targets on French northern coast. The raids of the 8th AF to Germany became regular in early 1943, but grew devastating just by 1944.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 10:18 am

Originally posted by Pasi Luokkanen:
I've been wondering if the limited range of the allied escort fighters has been taken into account. I dont remember the ranges of the allied fighters, but I have understood that their range was limited and in many cases the fighters were unable to escort all the way to target. The germans used this in their favor and waited for the escorts to turn home before attacking the bombers.

This was true up until November '43, but not after that. The P-51Bs, with the British Merlin engines, not only had the range to escort bombers, but they could drop to low altitude after the bombers went home and look for targets of opportunity before they ran out of gas. Add to this the use of a drop tank (used on P38 and P47 too), which could be used until combat occurred, to save the fuel of the internal tanks, and you ended up with a devestatingly effective bomber escort fighter. The fat man, Herman Goering, said after the war, that he knew they had lost the war when he saw Mustangs over Berlin.

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

Yogi Yohan · Post by **Yogi Yohan** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 12:40 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:

This was true up until November '43, but not after that. [ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]

Nevertheless, this warrants some changes to US 8th Air Force. It would seem to me that they should not get fighter escorts before the Mustangs arrive, and P-47's and P-38's only after the breakout from Normandie. (That sounds like a tough one to code though, so you could settle for the historical date, mid-to-late 1944).

How does the US Airforce work? Does it draw aircraft from Soviet Pools? Would setting a late arrival date for the aircraft types in question solve the problem?

And what about the RAF Lancs?! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 1:41 pm

What should they do? Reduce the personal pool of Axis player?

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 2:29 pm

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:
Nevertheless, this warrants some changes to US 8th Air Force. It would seem to me that they should not get fighter escorts before the Mustangs arrive, and P-47's and P-38's only after the breakout from Normandie. (That sounds like a tough one to code though, so you could settle for the historical date, mid-to-late 1944).

I'm not sure of it either, for one thing WiR gives the P-38 a better range than the P-51 which makes no sense.

I've noticed that early on, the 8th Air Force doesn't attack eastern targets, but only targets in the northwest of Germany. The 12th Air Force doesn't start with any fighters at all. This might be deliberate, to represent the absence of a long range fighter. The other thing is they developed good drop tanks for all US fighters, so the P38s at least would have been able to go with the bombers to targets in northwestern Germany. The P38j had a range exactly between the P47 and P51. Hmmm, the 8th Air Force starts with only P38s..... Hmmmm, this seems to stop at the beginning of '43 even though no new fighter groups have arrived. So for that year, the Allies have an advantage they shouldn't have.

How does the US Airforce work? Does it draw aircraft from Soviet Pools? Would setting a late arrival date for the aircraft types in question solve the problem?

It doesn't draw from any aircraft pool. The game decides the reinforcements to the air groups every turn. As the game progresses the US groups get larger and larger. Considering how this thing is handled within the game itself, I doubt changing arrival dates for the aircraft would make a difference. To much is hardwired I suspect.

And what about the RAF Lancs?!

Well, there are 2 possible reasons. First, we could argue that British night bombing was not as sucessful or as significant as US day bombing, despite the excellent Lancaster bombers. Note that I'm not including the Dresden and other British raids late in the war, I'll leave that for another thread. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Unfortunately I suspect the real reason is much less controversial: there are no free slots for air groups left. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

Barbos · Post by **Barbos** » Thu Oct 04, 2001 12:16 pm

Originally posted by Yogi Yohan:

Would setting a late arrival date for the aircraft types in question solve the problem?

You can ajust arrival date of air groups (wiredit, G, HQ line) instead of changing dates for craft types. So I shifted Allied bombing to early 1943 and P-47 first appearance to mid-1944.