F8 Crusader usage

[Stalintc]

Hiya gents\ladies

I am having trouble finding the best use for my F8 Crusaders (I am playing cold war battleset - Reinforcing the Northern Flank) I know full well that they are interceptors and are to used in air engagements.

I want to position them in a BARCAP screen, are they any use for this role?

I know they have only short range heat seeking missiles, how best can I deal with a well escorted bomber flight?

Are they going to be any use for escorting super etendards? I noticed a few MiG 29's flying CAP close to the USSR battlegroup, and I strongly doubt my F8's can deal with them, but im not totally sure so thats why im asking

I dont get many F8's in this mission I have around 8 on the carrier if I remember rightly, I have to use them properly or im going to be royally screwed I think

Also one more Q can I send aircraft to intercept incoming vampires?

Any more comments on the usage of the F8 would be most welcome!

Thanks

PS (one of my nimrods shot down a lone TU-95 lmao, who needs F8's!!)

[sirius]

I would use the F-8 Crusaders as close CAP for your TG ie 50-70nm out max, as for intercepting missiles its possible but not recomended for the AAMs they carry are stern chase missiles if I remember[8D]

[Stalintc]

That makes sense, I think I was being too ambitous in using them for a BARCAP due to their short range. Thanks for that info that helps!

Hmm so I have 3 super etendard IVP tanker aircraft at my disposal, im assuming one of these will refuel one crusader could be difficult if im trying to keep three CAP's up, I would like to do that for the reason that I want two forward CAP's for my Task Force consisting of two aircraft each, and one rear screen to move up into a hole created by them being destroyed or catch anything that slipped the net, as the radar on the F8 looks appaling. (thats what my nimrods are for mwuhaha) I have to at least leave two aircraft purely for intercept on my carrier, I wouldnt like to use them for covering CAP holes with fighters down for refuel.

The challenging decisions that Harpoon provides, im quite liking that!

Thanks for anymore suggestions\answers anyone can give to my other questions or this problem I just wrote about

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Stalintc

I know they have only short range heat seeking missiles, how best can I deal with a well escorted bomber flight?

Are they going to be any use for escorting super etendards? I noticed a few MiG 29's flying CAP close to the USSR battlegroup, and I strongly doubt my F8's can deal with them, but im not totally sure so thats why im asking

I dont get many F8's in this mission I have around 8 on the carrier if I remember rightly, I have to use them properly or im going to be royally screwed I think

Also one more Q can I send aircraft to intercept incoming vampires?

In my experience, even planes armed with short-ranged missiles can be effective against planes with long-range AAMs. Take a look at the AAR on Freek's Malakka scenario. I managed to 'ambush' Flankers with F-16 Falcons armed only with Sidewinders. This game was played in H3.6.3 and the visibility bug was still present so they probably did see me but could not evaluate me as hostile. I did it by keeping my radar off and staying low before making the final attack sprint on afterburner. I suspect that this tactic will work even better in ANW since visibility bug is fixed and the Falcons will be really hard to detect.

Another thing you can try is to always approach from the side or rear. If you have radar / AEW telling you where the enemy strikers/fighters are, you can vector your interceptors around their radar cones and attack them from their rear aspect. Don't turn on the fighter radar at all or you will likely reveal yourself.

Now, about intercepting missiles, unless the SSMs are sub-sonic speed, you are unlikely going to be able to engage them at all. For example, if the SSMs are travelling 1600kts+ and your AAMs are only doing 1400kts, there is such a low probability that they will even be able to to calculate an intercept vector that the attempt will be futile.

Good luck. Throw up an AAR and tell everyone how you are doing. I am sure that folks would love to hear how players are learning the game. [8D]

[Stalintc]

wow excellent tip there Herman! I feel a little less daunted by having such menial fighters at my disposal! I guess its all about proper positioning and taking into account electronic warfare.

On that subject however only just this moment two of my crusaders downed 3 Yak38 forgers, before the Norweigen F-16's even got a look in! unfortunatley that is going to cost me because they now need to refuel and re-arm, they had not long got on station when my nimrod crew detected the Yaks headed straight for them, I made the nimrod turn tail and lead the Yaks towards my CAP stations to which I flanked with 2 crusaders and caught them on the hop. Those Yaks launched a few moments after I activated my nimrods sensors, too much of a tempting target it seems. Im not sure how many more Yaks that Kiev has. This has come at a bad time because my only other two CAP's are low on fuel and are headed home, I am relying on that Norweigen controlled flight group of 4 F16's to help.

The enemy Task force is head straight into the engagement zones of two of my submarines which have forced to load all harpoons so I now have 10 Harpoons at my disposal. I plan going for the AEGIS platforms within the group (Primary - Udaloy Secondary - Kara) Then send two wings of 8 super etendards each to pounce the Slava using the fjords as cover (which I assume has the long range missiles from the database entry)I just hope those helos dont find my submarines after missile launch.. I am *hoping* to close in with the submarines and launch a torpedo attack. But I am also hoping if this goes well that the Task Force will turn tail and head away so I can let the amphibious group unload their cargo for the victory! (Is the AI clever enough to turn away?) That Kiev is not a threat to me, because as far as I know it is only carrying Yak38's (he says) which are no threat to my ships.

I am using my nimrods for AEW hehe, they have even managed to down a TU-95 on their own.

Thanks for the link to that AAR I will have a read!

I will do my best to post an AAR provided I can give myself enough feedback from the mission to write a contructive one lol!!

Thanks again

PS I just realised the Kiev is the one with the Sandbox missiles *doh*

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Stalintc

The enemy Task force is head straight into the engagement zones of two of my submarines which have forced to load all harpoons so I now have 10 Harpoons at my disposal. I plan going for the AEGIS platforms within the group (Primary - Udaloy Secondary - Kara) Then send two wings of 8 super etendards each to pounce the Slava using the fjords as cover (which I assume has the long range missiles from the database entry)I just hope those helos dont find my submarines after missile launch.. I am *hoping* to close in with the submarines and launch a torpedo attack. But I am also hoping if this goes well that the Task Force will turn tail and head away so I can let the amphibious group unload their cargo for the victory! (Is the AI clever enough to turn away?) That Kiev is not a threat to me, because as far as I know it is only carrying Yak38's (he says) which are no threat to my ships.

I am using my nimrods for AEW hehe, they have even managed to down a TU-95 on their own.

Thanks for the link to that AAR I will have a read!

I will do my best to post an AAR provided I can give myself enough feedback from the mission to write a contructive one lol!!

Thanks again

PS I just realised the Kiev is the one with the Sandbox missiles *doh*

It's just a minor note, but the Russians don't quite have AEgis systems. The VLS system on the Slava does a good job, though. [;)]

Here's another hint:

When you go up against the ships that you intend to hit with Harpoons, try and get as close as you can. Be careful, too, the Harpoon has a minimum launch range. You don't want to get so close that you can't fire them! [:D]

Another tactic that has worked is to use the Harpoons to try and open a hole in the ASW screen so that your subs can penetrate and kill the Kiev and Slava. Otherwise, it takes a LOT of of Harpoons and other Anti-Ship Missiles [AShMs] to kill them. One torpedo usually does the job of 3-4 missiles.

It is always GREAT to hear someone who is obviously enjoying themselves so much with the game! Any AAR you put up will be appreciated and enjoyed. There is NO right or wrong way to write an AAR. We all like to laugh along with you as you learn [and make mistakes] with Harpoon. Remember, we are laughing WITH you and not laughing AT you. [8D]

[Stalintc]

Yes as I say im not quite up on naval warfare as you may have noticed lol im glad I read that as ive reached a decision point, the enemy Task Force has stopped, im not sure what they are up to, but I have a breather to decide what to do with those subs missiles, and your comment there helps alot as I am looking to prosecute a torpedo attack in the event they dont turn away. I have an itching feeling they have stopped because the Kiev is now within range of launching her sandox missiles which is a concern.

I am enjoying myself ALOT! this is one hell of a game\sim im surprised I never picked up on it before, I guess I will be sharing the results of this scenario with you all, this is very mind bending compared to the other two scenarios I have played through.

I am concerned about my strike with the super etendards, their exocets dont have a great range, I think im going to have to do this argentinian style with those aircraft screaming along the deck using the fjords as some kind of cover. It might go better than I thought considering I have knocked down two of their TU-95 aircraft.

But still another possibility is *IF* I can keep that task force from getting a fix on my transports for a missile strike, I may not even have to attack fully, just harrass and damage where I can.

Good tips heh if you have anymore they are always gratefully recieved, I assume you know of the scenario im fighting?

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Stalintc

Yes as I say im not quite up on naval warfare as you may have noticed lol im glad I read that as ive reached a decision point, the enemy Task Force has stopped, im not sure what they are up to, but I have a breather to decide what to do with those subs missiles, and your comment there helps alot as I am looking to prosecute a torpedo attack in the event they dont turn away. I have an itching feeling they have stopped because the Kiev is now within range of launching her sandox missiles which is a concern.

With the Russian SAG stopped, I *hope* that it hasn't run into this bug:

Ships stop with illegal nav message.

It would be a real bummer since AI cannot find a way around it. It is supposedly fixed for the next patch.

Your planned employment of the Etendards sounds like your best option. IIRC, the Grumble on the Slava is quite fearsome. [;)]

I've seen the AI do some odd things after a torpedo attack. Sometimes, it just evades and returns to the original mission. At other times, I've seen the ships that were the targets of torpedoes run 60nm in the opposite direction and then stop and sit there. I suspect that you would like the latter to happen.... [;)]

Just in case you forgot, BOTH the Kiev and the Slava carry Sandbox SSMs. [8D]

[Stalintc]

Hmm now you mention it I keep getting a nav error in my message box, everytime it appeared I went looking for which one of my damn ships was causing it, but they are all moving fine. I didnt think it was being caused by the enemy task force because I assumed you wont see nav errors for the opposing force?! but perhaps I am wrong. and you are quite right those ships dont seem to know what to do, the udaloy seems very unsure of itself, its zigzagging in front of the convoy very slowly but not making any progress forwards. It appears they have run into some trouble lol

As an update tho, the Norweigen F-16's did something very useful that I didnt expect, they flew over and knocked out 3 Yaks which seemed to be their combat air patrol and 3 or 4 of their ASW helicopters. Which is a bonus.. however all of the f-16's eventually got shot down by the slava and her missiles. I am about to relaunch my combat air patrol, reserving two fighters for either strike escort or intercept should I need it. There is no way I would have risked my fighters like that, the F-16 engagement was pure attrition despite working in my favour. So the Kiev has now lost 6 of its Yaks they must be running low on them right now (I hope)

hehe I would love for those ships to run away and stop, the running away bit is what I had in mind!

Ahh so both the Slava and the Kiev are sandbox carriers, I should really spend more time studying that database! thanks for the heads up though. [&o]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Stalintc

Hmm now you mention it I keep getting a nav error in my message box, everytime it appeared I went looking for which one of my damn ships was causing it, but they are all moving fine. I didnt think it was being caused by the enemy task force because I assumed you wont see nav errors for the opposing force?! but perhaps I am wrong. and you are quite right those ships dont seem to know what to do, the udaloy seems very unsure of itself, its zigzagging in front of the convoy very slowly but not making any progress forwards. It appears they have run into some trouble lol

Crap. Looks like your game has hit the NAV bug. [:@]

It really ruins a game. And, you are right. The behaviour you are describing is exactly what happens when the bug is encountered by the AI. It won't be able to TELL you it has hit the bug, it just stops and pretty much takes itself out of the game. [:(]

That's a darned shame. This bug will usually come into play whenever there are ships and land is nearby. So, for a NAVAL simulation, that is pretty much game over. Nothing you can do about it. [;)]

When that patch comes out, I bet that if you re-play this same scenario, you are going to have a TOTALLY different experience! [:D]

[Stalintc]

Thats a real shame I wont be so lucky next time when it gets fixed.

I will continue with the scenario however as its all good practice, im still new and this is my third scenario. Plus I have managed to assertain that the Kiev and the Slava are *just* within range of their missiles, if my task force gets picked up ive got problems. So there is still some danger and a bit of playability left in the scenario. Ive just picked up yet another TU-95 confirmed headed to a patrol positon. [:)]

[hermanhum]

Just a quick note.  If you play against another player, this Bug is much less relevant.  A human player can always correct for it.  It is only the AI that cannot find a way to compensate for it. 

So, I hope that you get a chance to play some MP, soon.  [8D]

Anyone looking for a server or a game can often find one on HarpGamer pHp chat room or the HG mIRC chat room.

[Stalintc]

Great stuff, I will keep that in mind! invaluable help throughout this thread! much more things learned than just F8's lol!![8D]

[mikmykWS]

Nav bug fixed in next version. Have no idea why hit would be less relevent in MP though.

[Stalintc]

the enemy task group has started to move again.... I think the AI freed itself *uh oh* and is on the move again.

Thankfully I have sunk the Udaloy and the groups entire complement of Yaks has been downed by frequent air superiority strikes by my crusaders and the Norweigen F-16's, also their helicopter compliment has suffered from this and the group now appears to be out of long range SAM's, I was able to fly a crusader in a circle around the ships just outside of AA range with no missile launch.

The reason I believe they dont have any long range or decent air defense missiles left is that I have been pounding them with large missile strikes of which most missiles were shot down. Now the missiles appear to be making it through. I think ive broken the combat group at last. But its not over until the Slava and Kiev have been either turned away or destroyed, their Sandbox missiles are still a huge threat.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Stalintc

Thankfully I have sunk the Udaloy and the groups entire complement of Yaks has been downed by frequent air superiority strikes by my crusaders and the Norweigen F-16's, also their helicopter compliment has suffered from this and the group now appears to be out of long range SAM's, I was able to fly a crusader in a circle around the ships just outside of AA range with no missile launch.

The reason I believe they dont have any long range or decent air defense missiles left is that I have been pounding them with large missile strikes of which most missiles were shot down. Now the missiles appear to be making it through. I think ive broken the combat group at last. But its not over until the Slava and Kiev have been either turned away or destroyed, their Sandbox missiles are still a huge threat.

That's the 'brute force' method (a.k.a. attrition). Getting the enemy to fire off all of his LR SAMs is certainly effective. However, the availability of missiles like the Exocet are certainly limited. And, in the third-party databases, the reload times are not an automatic 30 minutes like they are in the ODb.

Good to see that you've still got Kiev and Slava to contend with. It's like a boxing match between a boxer and a puncher. The puncher only needs to land ONE blow. [:D]

[Stalintc]

It took two waves of 8 aircraft 2 minutes apart to take down the udaloy, only 4 exocets out of 16 missed the other 12 hit home, one or two of which aquired the Kara class and has damaged her somewhat.

I have enough exocets for two more waves of 8 planes, the target oddly enough will be the Kara as that is the last ship with those long range ASW missiles. The other two krivaks wont be a huge threat to my submarines if I dont get too close, im hoping to nail the slava and kiev with torpedo attacks, and yes I do have ADCAPS at my disposal mwuhaha.

I may let one of those waves of super etendards hit the Slava to cripple her at least, since now the Udaloy has gone there is a huge opening at the front of the formation, to which I intend to post the exocets [8D]

The good thing that works in my favour is my task force is now in the surface radar safety of the fjords, their AEW helicopters and Tu-95's are no more, and im using Seaking AEW's and nimrods to keep the Russian Task Force under watchful eyes.

The Russian task force is now at the mercy of my aircraft and submarines.

I think the task force has started moving again since I killed the udaloy, they are most definatley moving on my scope now.

Despite the fact the AI ran into the nav bug (which it has now freed itself *I think*), its not going too bad for a third scenario, and I have to say the most fun yet! [8D]

[hermanhum]

It's really excellent to see someone enjoying themselves so much on one scenario.  [8D]

I must insist that you pencil me in on your dance card for this scenario when you get ready to play it in MP. I want to be the Russians so you can see how things might be different with a human on the other side.   [:)]

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[mikmykWS]

JP and I had a great few games during development. Fact can recall early on before chat even evolved. How far it all came! Really nice to see hard work of the entire team come together and see some guys enjoying it. Makes its all worth it! I also hope the guy that originally developed the scenario has a chance to see his work is still enjoyed today.

Anyways.. I always enjoyed playing from the NATO side rather than the Soviets. Never knew quite when those big missiles would be comin at you. Lot of range and bearing clicking once detections were made.

Some recent information seems to say that certain models of those big Soviet SSM's where hardened in an attempt to make them a big more survivable. I'd say NATO was pretty lucky war never broke out to see how true that was..anyways..

Keep up the great posts guys. Really been enjoying this.

[Stalintc]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

It's really excellent to see someone enjoying themselves so much on one scenario.  [8D]

I must insist that you pencil me in on your dance card for this scenario when you get ready to play it in MP. I want to be the Russians so you can see how things might be different with a human on the other side.   [:)]

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You can be sure of that [:)] need about 12 hours tho lol!!

Ive been playing this scenario over the course of several days at the moment ( I dont use time compression much ) and its great fun to sit down at it each day and resume what I was doing yesterday, theres no rush to complete the scenario, plus I get plenty of time to think things out, (which wont be the case in MP lol) that for me is immersive.

Yes those SSM's sound scary Mike, im glad that im yet to have any heading my way [8D]