Reverse movement command needed; German armor sections?

[Yoozername]

If one needs to move one vehicle backwards, the whole platoon must be given a withdrawl command? Even if you give minimal reverse commands to the others, this seems a bit too restrictive (and non-realsistic for units under fire). It would be nice to give short reverse movements during the reaction phase especially.

It would be better if the game modeled German 'platoons' as being 'sections'. Two tank units that have the present 'platoon' level of command and control.

The Soviets should have 3-7 tank 'platoons'. I would even want some 10 tank Soviet 'conscripts'.

This would abstract nicely the superior German command and control at this time. The way the game is now, it just feels too 'leveled' as far as command and control.

[Mobius]

[font=arial]The original way Soviets were to be issued orders was at the company level.
I think the one turn delay in Soviet orders is to partially represent this as orders
take a turn to travel down from CHQ to platoon command. [/font][/align][font=arial]In winter of 1942 Soviet medium and light tanks were in companies of 10 tanks while heavy tanks were in companies of 5 tanks each.[/font][/align][font=arial]It might be a little hard for new players to manage a mob of 10 tanks.[/font][/align][font=arial][/font] [/align][font=arial]As for minor reversing, maybe Defend could be modified to add a sub-move of a 'shift' of 25m or less in any direction?   So tanks could get into better firing positions or hull down positions.
In PW AFVs are only penalized +1 to-hit if they only shift or pivot and not move at Advance move speed.
[/font][/align]

[Yoozername]

I would still like the Germans to have reverse in other platoon orders.  Reversing a short distance, combined with facing change, is a common reaction when subjected to fire.  Even a Tiger does not like to have itself plinked at.  Those non-penetrating hits can damage many sub-systems.
 
I think that armor units that are stunned might also auto-reverse to some degree.
 
The game is good but needs tweaking.  I hope that it is done in a final revision and not a new game.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I would still like the Germans to have reverse in other platoon orders. Reversing a short distance, combined with facing change, is a common reaction when subjected to fire.
Even a Tiger does not like to have itself plinked at. Those non-penetrating hits can damage many sub-systems.

In reality tanks didn't reverse very far or very fast. Especially while buttoned up. Reversing to get out of trouble would only logically be in Withdraw (obvious), Defend (to get a better defensive position) or Engage (while street fighting or other close quarters).
Might have to think about Bound. Platoons would have to be very highly trained to bring off a bounding withdrawl and then only when pre-planned and not as a reaction.

I think that armor units that are stunned might also auto-reverse to some degree.

Stun is quite abstract and means too many things for that. Might be stalled engine, wounded or unconscious driver, jammed drive train, etc.

The game is good but needs tweaking. I hope that it is done in a final revision and not a new game.

Games always need a little tweaking.[:)]

[Yoozername]

The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

Reverse is often used when under fire and becomes a 'unit' (afv) decision. Not a platoon manuver.

[PDiFolco]

I add my vote, "reverse" (single unit) should be allowed as a reaction order.
There are many things missing in PZC orders : reverse is one, but there's no "Scoot & Shoot", no "Seek Hull Down", and no "Follow" order.

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

If it's so 'classic' a couple of WWII references please.

[EagleMountainDK]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

If it's so 'classic' a couple of WWII references please.

I'm pretty sure PDiFolco is thinking of CM as his reference...

[PDiFolco]

ORIGINAL: Cougar_DK

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

If it's so 'classic' a couple of WWII references please.

I'm pretty sure PDiFolco is thinking of CM as his reference...

Agreed [8D] ! To me CM is a "standard" now in PC tac games, as long as noone does better, or at least equals it ! [;)]

[EagleMountainDK]

I know what you mean. I have played CM since CMBO and its hard NOT to think of PZC as the next CMxx. But it isn't.... But it have the potential to be next next big thing...IMHO....

Think of PZC as a new game, the scope is different even though they look (a little) a like. I kinda like the idead of controlling a platoon instead of individual squads/vehicles, and when we get some kind of waypoints we will get more control.

[Yoozername]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

If it's so 'classic' a couple of WWII references please.

One off the top of my head is the Battle at Noville described by Burgett in his book '7 roads to Hell'. The shermans are clearly described as using buildings as cover and moving forward, firing and reversing back.

The US TD battalions used this form of warfare extensively.

You will be responding to the fuse thread where you mixed up technologies I hope?

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

If it's so 'classic' a couple of WWII references please.

One off the top of my head is the Battle at Noville described by Burgett in his book '7 roads to Hell'. The shermans are clearly described as using buildings as cover and moving forward, firing and reversing back.
The US TD battalions used this form of warfare extensively.
You will be responding to the fuse thread where you mixed up technologies I hope?

The 'shoot and scoot' idea used in these games seems a vestige of cold war tactics for stabilized NATO tanks to take on numerically superior Soviet tanks.

Two cases that I can think of for shooting and reversing were in urban close fighting.
The first is Michael Wittmann in Villers Bocage was as his Tiger was coming to an intersection he spotted a Firefly waiting around a corner for him.
Both he and the Firefly fired about the same time. Wittmann's shot hit the building next to the Firefly while the 17pdrs shot ricocheted off the edge of Wittmann's Tiger. He immediately backed away a short distance and headed out of town.

The second was at night near Elsdorf where a Pershing was positioned behind a road block. A Tiger which was concealed fired three times knocking out the M26. The Tiger then backed up but was immobolized on a pile of debris and abandoned.

So these backup moves could be a sub-option of an Engage Order. Or they could be a Advance or Defend order followed the next turn by a withdraw order. Depending on how one divides up the time.

[Erik Rutins]

We discussed adding Withdraw as a reaction order and a few design challenges kept it from getting into the first update. We'll revisit that in the future. I do think that there's room to have it in there, but we need a bit more time to make sure we implement it in a way that makes sense.

[Yoozername]

Good to hear.  Consider the German Tank section idea also.  I would be Ok with an abstract where the Germans have two tank sections and the Soviets 3-5 tanks 'platoons'.  At this stage of the war, the Germans had a clear tactical C&C advantage.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

It'd work well under either the ENGAGE or DEFEND submenus.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[madorosh]

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
The classic offensive use of reverse is to shoot and scoot. A short move forward followed by a quick reverse upon firing (driver does this automatically).

If it's so 'classic' a couple of WWII references please.

Exactly.

Donald Graves mentions a Sherman trying to reverse at Kapelsche Veer during the fighting there in Jan 1945 in his book SOUTH ALBERTAS: A CANADIAN REGIMENT AT WAR. Shermans didn't have rear view mirrors, naturally, and the only way to accomplish a reverse of anything more than a few yards was for the crew commander to open the hatch and look behind the tank. At Kapelsche Veer, a crew commander was killed by a sniper while doing just that. When operating in close quarters with friendly infantry and under fire, I suspect crews would be very reluctant to try and reverse blindly, especially tanks without commander cupolas.

I'd like to see a reference to "shoot and scoot" also as something that was done in the realm of reality rather than something we've all seen in CM or other games.

[Paul Vebber]

WWII doctrine for US tank destroyers (the M18 in particular) emphized the notion of "shoot and scoot" - but itwas NOT in the tactical sense most gamers want. It was done in the "grand tactical" sense of "set up an ambush" (particularlly in a turret down position) - spot teh enemy, go to hull down to fire, and immeidaly leave before effective return fire or artileery could be used on the now exposed position. 3-5 shots and scram was typical. But often only the few feet from hull down to full cover was "in reverse". The the platoon/company would run off at high speed to the next ambush position.

This remains typical Anti-tank doctrine to this day for vehical mounted ATGMs.

But it DOES NOT realy on travelling any significant distance in reverse.

In teh contest of games like this with turns measured in "10s of seconds" these tactics would involve a single ambush and then the repositioning would take longer than the rest of the game.

[Marc von Martial]

I especially would like to see a doctrine example for that for the germans, I have yet to read a book on Panzer tactics that mentioned "shoot and scoot" in there. It is almost impossible to reverse (under combat conditions) in a WW2 tank unless it has the features pointed out by Michael above. Hell, tank drivers had a hard time to make turns under certain terrain conditions withouth the commander assisting them.

Even in modern tanks the ability to judge terrain on the sides and rear of the tank, especially when buttoned, is very difficult and that with all the aids the driver has today. IIRC modern "shoot and scoot" tactics are only applied in defense positions with prepared positions and prepared terrain. Correct me if I'm wrong, my live tank driving experience is now 12 years old [;)]

[Paul Vebber]

From Tactical and Technical Trends - a review of captured German documents, Oct 1944

This sort of description is common in SP-AT discussions on all sides. The value being in teh ability to quickly concentrate mass of fire at an enemy point of breakthrough and then retire to pre-selected locations to "re-ambush" over and over.

In an attack, the infantry will be accompanied by self-propelled antitank platoons, each giving the other mutual support. The enemy should be engaged by surprise, when possible from defiladed positions or from positions on reverse slopes, with all guns firing simultaneously. Fire should be opened, when possible, by whole companies, since it will frequently be necessary to fire in several directions at the same time. Platoons can fire effectively only in one direction at a time.

The only completely successful method of employing self-propelled companies is in mobile operations. Flank attacks are very effective, especially if they are combined with a small frontal attack.

In defense, the main task of self-propelled antitank guns is the destruction of tanks which have broken through. Self-propelled units will therefore be held as mobile reserves and employed all together, especially for the point of main effort. An efficient warning system, using radio whenever possible, is especially important. Gun commanders must thoroughly reconnoiter probable operational areas, the ground in the main defensive belt, tank approaches, and the rear areas of the position. Close liaison with the infantry is essential. It is wrong to dig in self-propelled guns because of their lack of traverse, but firing and alternative positions must be prepared for them.

Concentration at the point of attack, rapid engagement in mass, and then dispersal and reconcentration at a new pre-selected location. Over teh course of HOURS. That is the reality of "Shoot and scoot".

The C2 time demands on executing the sort of incredibly intricate and perfectly coordinated manuevers the average "near real time" tactical game allows and the still more complex ones players complain about not being able to do appraoches nonsense.

Heck even in discussion of FCS the sort of "shoot and scoot" that the typical game "borg hive-mind" makes appear "easy" is questionable, given the realites of C2.

[Yoozername]

LOL!