Proposed Speed change for Enhanced FV

[FlashfyreSP]

The question has risen many times over the years why mortar and machinegun units have Speeds less than the regular infantry, with whom they were to support. Reasons have been given, discussions have ensued, and many opinions presented during that time.

It has been suggested that these crews were not less "speedy" than their rifle-toting compadres, but were able to move at roughly the same rates. Also, since some of the crew for them were also riflemen toting ammo, they shouldn't be penalized for doing so.

We are contemplating raising the Speeds of certain of these units, according to the following criteria:

* Mortars of 82mm and smaller caliber are considered "company assets" and would be expected to keep up with the advance
* Machineguns classed as "Medium MGs" are considered "company assets" as well, and would also be expected to move at the same rate as the advancing platoons
* Mortars in the 90mm-107mm range are somewhat more cumbersome to move, and would therefore be limited to a Speed of 2/3rds that of regular infantry
* Machineguns classed as "Heavy MGs", unless done for granularity in formation construction, would be considered too heavy and cumbersome to move easily, and would also be limited to a Speed of 2/3rds that of regular infantry
* Mortars over 107mm in caliber will remain unchanged, as these weapons typically required some sort of non-human transport to carry them



Examples of these criteria:

1. Regular infantry has a Speed of 9. So an 81mm Mortar Squad or a 7.62mm MG34 MMG Squad would also have that speed, allowing them to cross up to 4 hexes of Open terrain in one turn, the same as the Rifle Squad can.

2. A 90mm Mortar or .50cal M2-HB HMG would have Speeds of 6, and would only be able to cross 3 hexes of Open terrain in one turn.

3. A 120mm Mortar would remain unchanged, with its Speed of 1, allowing it to move only 1 hex per turn.

Some of these units already have these Speeds implemented; the HMGs mostly have Speeds of 6 now, and the MMGs and some Mortars are either 8 or 9 in Speed. We are looking to both raise the rates of most Mortars, and any MGs which may have been missed in previous revisions.

[junk2drive]

On the surface I will agree with all of the above. As long as they cannot fire until the next turn after movement.
 
Japanese knee mortar comes to mind as one that maybe wouldn't have a delay.
 
Could be a nightmare with older scenarios but it's time for some new ones anyway.

[FlashfyreSP]

We won't be changing the "loss of shot" penalty for these units; only switching their Class would do that, short of rewriting the code.
Light mortars like the Japanese Knee Mortar suffer the same game code "loss of shot"; if the weapon is part of an infantry unit, it doesn't lose all shots for movement, but if the unit is Classed as a Mortar or Machinegun type, the "shot loss" occurs.

[m10bob]

I, of course agree the company-size mortars and MG's should all move at the exact same speed as the rest of the company.As stated in my comments at the Depot, my unit divided the mortars and MG's by pieces to the bigger guys,and the rest of the team carried the ammo.
The unit moved in "open-march", which on the road was a column on each side of the road, each man approx 20 feet apart from the next. Both columns moved at the same pace and there was no lagging, regardless of weight carried, nor size of the soldier.
IMHO, SP has ALWAYS had this wrong.
The penalty of not being able to fire the HMG or heavier mortars(above approx 76mm) already compensates for the time to either assemble or knock down the piece, but there should be NO penalty for movement whatsoever.
The uniformity of speed continued "off road" as well. Nobody was "left behind" in any rice paddies nor jungle mountainsides, (as I recall)..
Thank you for considering the change....

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

You marched down the road at a speed of 4 movement points, the same as my outfit. Nothing in the game prohibits that. Carrying heavy equipment will and should reduce the rate at which troops sprint. Maximum movement points of 9 is the sprint rate.

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.

Bye...

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I, of course agree the company-size mortars and MG's should all move at the exact same speed as the rest of the company.As stated in my comments at the Depot, my unit divided the mortars and MG's by pieces to the bigger guys,and the rest of the team carried the ammo.
The unit moved in "open-march", which on the road was a column on each side of the road, each man approx 20 feet apart from the next. Both columns moved at the same pace and there was no lagging, regardless of weight carried, nor size of the soldier.
IMHO, SP has ALWAYS had this wrong.
The penalty of not being able to fire the HMG or heavier mortars(above approx 76mm) already compensates for the time to either assemble or knock down the piece, but there should be NO penalty for movement whatsoever.
The uniformity of speed continued "off road" as well. Nobody was "left behind" in any rice paddies nor jungle mountainsides, (as I recall)..
Thank you for considering the change....

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

You marched down the road at a speed of 4 movement points, the same as my outfit. Nothing in the game prohibits that. Carrying heavy equipment will and should reduce the rate at which troops sprint. Maximum movement points of 9 is the sprint rate.

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.

Bye...

So you're telling me that while the rifleman CAN sprint up to 200 meters in a turn, the mortar team can ONLY move 50 meters. No more than that.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

No. I did not assign a 1 movement for mortar crews. One of you folk did. I just claim that machine guns and mortars should have fewer movement factors than rifle squads not porting heavy weapons.

In my example, the mortar crew would most likely make two trips, based on current crew size assigned. Increasing the crew size (or reducing the ammunition allotment) would increase the distance the mortar team could travel in one turn. The heaviest item for thje mortar crew only weighs 35 pounds (plus about the same amount for personal equipment). But, even then, carrying 35 extra pounds will slow down a trooper a bit, when sprinting. Proper ammunition for a non-motorized 81mm mortar crew would probably be closer to 12 HE rounds and zero smoke. The ammunition assigned is for an in place mortar team with one days ammunition.

I was assigned to a 105mm howitzer battery for a while. The crew could easily man handle a gun at probably 3 hexes a turn on a road, for a turn or two. But, the ammunition would take another hour to move 3 hexes, without the truck.

When we carried a medium machine gun, the M-60, Private Lavinghouse carry the tripod, as it was heavy and awkward. I carried two boxes of ammunition and Lance Corporal Dickers carried the gun. We could not sprint as quickly as without the gun. But, we did move across country with the rest of the platoon, at walking pace.

Also, we chose not to add fatigue to the game. Carrying the extra weight would require more rest breaks, which would slow down the unit over a period of time. And, of course, if we had added individual endurance and strength values for each trooper, we could gain a greater granularity in game mechanics at the expense of playability.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello...

You marched down the road at a speed of 4 movement points, the same as my outfit. Nothing in the game prohibits that. Carrying heavy equipment will and should reduce the rate at which troops sprint. Maximum movement points of 9 is the sprint rate.

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.

Bye...

So you're telling me that while the rifleman CAN sprint up to 200 meters in a turn, the mortar team can ONLY move 50 meters. No more than that.

[Mike Wood]

error

[junk2drive]

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

error

Thank goodness. I was getting a headache trying to find the changes with each edit.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Ya. Should probably have composed and then posted. Free flow of thought. Kept editing. Trying to make self understood.

Bye...

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

error

Thank goodness. I was getting a headache trying to find the changes with each edit.

[chief]

Flash: I just recently tested a scenario, with 60mm mtrs, the squad kept up a pace the mortar crew could maintain. I decided to rush the outpost and overrun. The squad went ahead of my mortars to get into a positon to rush, the mortars moved up and set up behind the (SCRIMMAGE ?) line. After the mortar barrage lifted the infantry swarmed in and took all the objectives. When walking, motars and infantry go at the same pace, nada problemo, when running/double timing etc. the mortars could not keep up in the real world. Plus I was always told that you move at the pace of the slowest man in your unit whenever possible.

[m10bob]

If you calculate the weight of an 81mm mortar with 60 rounds of HE and 20 rounds of smoke ammunition, it comes to 700 pounds. The data base assigns a 5 man crew. That is 140 pounds per man. Try sprinting 500 yards, carrying an extra 140 pounds. If you can keep up with a fellow carrying a rifle, you're a better man than I, Gungadin.

We did not limit ammo bearers to just the 5 man crew, and neither did you, I'm sure..
Being a better man?. That's not an issue.We were warriors.
You were a Gyrene, I was a Ranger.
We will always be...........

[FlashfyreSP]

ORIGINAL: chief

Flash: I just recently tested a scenario, with 60mm mtrs, the squad kept up a pace the mortar crew could maintain. I decided to rush the outpost and overrun. The squad went ahead of my mortars to get into a positon to rush, the mortars moved up and set up behind the (SCRIMMAGE ?) line. After the mortar barrage lifted the infantry swarmed in and took all the objectives. When walking, motars and infantry go at the same pace, nada problemo, when running/double timing etc. the mortars could not keep up in the real world. Plus I was always told that you move at the pace of the slowest man in your unit whenever possible.

Right. The light mortar units are ok; they can pretty much keep up with the grunts. The question has been the 81mm mortar types: some have asked why they are limited to a 1 Speed, when the troopers would be expected to move along with the rest of the platoon/company.

I suppose the differences in opinion come down to whether you see movement in the game as "combat movement", or "non-combat movement". By these I mean combat movement is the type of movement a squad uses when it's in the fire zone: slow, methodical advancing with overwatch, low crawling, long pauses to assess the environment, etc. And non-combat movement is the type of movement used by troops who aren't in the actual fire zone, or at least don't realize they are: column marching, taking the easiest terrain path, double-time marching, etc.

Same for the MGs, particularly the HMG units. Is the crew hustling to get the piece from Point A to Point B, or are they taking the most protected route to a new firing position? Movement rates would depend on which type you believe the game does, or should, represent.

[Twotribes]

Well in a non grunt unit in the Marine Corps circa 1990 to 1995 one went at the pace of the fastest ignorant officer irregardless of established route speed for marches. And if you fell out that same officer would see to it you got extra training.

And forget running as a unit. If you couldnt do a 6 minute mile in some of these units on the run, you were a slacker and a problem Marine.

BUT back on subject. As far as I can tell units only have ONE speed. Is it route march or is it sprint speed? If it is sprint speed we have a reality problem anyway since one can do that speed as long as no enemy fires on you.

If it is permanent sprint speed, then dont change the speed of support units with heavy or bulking equipment. If it is march speed then do make the changes.

[Goblin]

I think units in the game list max speed, since I, as commander, decide their actual speed. If I want them to creep along, they will move one hex. If I want them to sprint into action to plug a hole, they will. See what I mean?
 
 
 
Goblin

[Twotribes]

Vehicles can and do break down, but our infantry are supermen.

[junk2drive]

Am I confusing "speed" with number of hexes that a unit can move per turn?

[FlashfyreSP]

Speed as a Unit Rating is the number of Movement Points a unit has to move with. Each Terrain type costs so many MPs to move into; for example, Prinary Roads cost 1 MP for Wheeled, 4-Wheeled, and Tracked units, and 2 MPs for Foot units. MPs are translated to a "speed", which is usually related in MPH or KPH.

So in the OOB, each Unit has a Speed value that sets how many MPs it has. Infantry with a Speed of "9" have 9 MPs, and as each Mixed/Open terrain hex costs 2 MPs, a Squad can typically move 4 hexes (8 MPs, 200 meters) in one game turn.

[m10bob]

If the fire during penalty were removed, IMHO the squad level mortars would be appropriate.(The American 60mm comes to mind), as it could be fired without the baseplate (as an expedient.)
The accuracy is not dependent on the baseplate, the plate lowers the pounds per square inch upon discharge and prevents the barrel from burying itself.A really good 11c(mortarman)can hit a target within eyesite with the sometimes 1st,and certainly the 2nd or 3rd round.
The company level (76mm and larger) would be too impractical to fire without the plate..
During Ranger school,we had a mortar instructor who allowed the class to manually place a "tree stump,M1" anywhere on the instruction field.He then set up different mortars,(different nations), and proceeded to hit said stump repeatedly, to prove it was not "pre-zeroed", and that accuracy was possible.We observed his demonstrations on different objects all morning, with equal results.

[KG Erwin]

I got a problem with this.  Now, American light mortar squads had no problem in man-handling those 60mm weapons and keeping up with the grunts. 
 
The 81s are a whole different story.   In jungle warfare, the 81s were usually left behind, unless transport was available. This was seldom the case. 
 
Same goes for 30 cal HMGs. The M1917A1s weighed some 80 lbs apiece, and were NOT designed to accompany an advancing  force. That what the 1919A4s and A6s were for. 
 
You guys do what you want, but it's nothing more than going gamey and acquiescing to the PBEM crowd.  
 
You've said that it shouldn't matter to us solo players, who get our jollies by beating up on the AI.   If the scenario is designed well, you are NOT gonna easily beat the AI. 
 
For PBEM,  I'd think that a good player should be restricted to historical limits.  I get the impression that some wanna turn it into a free-for-all. 
 
Enhanced is a great improvement, so I hope you'll stand your ground and defend the integrity of the game.  Don't dilute it.