Japanese production - no PDU game

[Arkady]

Hi, there is a interesting thread [:'(] about allied aircraft production.

I want give some number on Japanese production, game started before PDU was implemented, it is now October 16th 1943.
I expanded facilities a lot, if I want stockpile HI points I need always stiwch off some factories for a while.

Current monthly output numbers:
A6M2-N Rufe - 14
A6M5 Zeke - 650
A6M5c Zeke - 62
B5N Kate - 80
D4Y Judy - 264
E14Y1 Glen - 4
G4M2 Betty - 344
H6K2-L Mavis - 5
H6K4 Mavis - 4
H8K Emily - 40
J1N1-R Irving - 16
J1N1-S Irving - 23
J2M Jack - 38
Ki-21 Sally - 80
Ki-43-IIa Oscar - 401
Ki-44-IIb Tojo - 152
Ki-45 KAIb Nick - 24
Ki-46-III Dinah - 79
Ki-48 Lily - 80
Ki-49 Helen - 46
Ki-51 Sonia - 63
Ki-57-II Topsy - 40
Ki-61 KAIc Tony - 96
L3Y Tina - 5
MC-21 Sally - 5
N1K1-J George - 93

and other 387 factories conducting research

Engine production
1342 Mitsubischi engines
1608 Nakajima engines
Kawasaki and Aichi only in necessary nubmers

Actually I have enough machines to replace any short-term losses immediately. Anyway I missing experienced pilots, machiens alone are useless.
Don't know AC pool numbers from allies but there is no shortage from my point of view.
AC losses are 14866 allied vs 22463 japanese planes

I don't think that allies need any increase in production numbers at all. Only after 9/45 as war in Europe ends and all production can be dedicated to PTO.

[Mike Scholl]

"I don't think that allies need any increase in production numbers at all. Only after 9/45 as war in Europe ends and all production can be dedicated to PTO."


It's not a question of NEED (though that's true with a couple of A/C types. It's a question of RIGHT! You've been playing with your production and have a decent number of decent A/C coming in. The Allies get what the game gives them. If both sides were recieving "fixed" reinforcements, and it was discovered that the Japanese were getting "shorted", no one would be saying "Well, they have enough to use the pilots they get". It would be a full throated scream from everyone demanding that it be fgixed. But somehow when it's the Allies we hear all this "well, they don't need it" nonsense. If they were there..., PUT THEM IN!

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
It would be a full throated scream from everyone demanding that it be fgixed. But somehow when it's the Allies we hear all this "well, they don't need it" nonsense. If they were there..., PUT THEM IN!

I have quite reverse feelings. Actually what I hear NOW is a full throated scream from everyone demanding that US production need increasing. And also I hear "It's Japanese, they don't need it".

So please stop this pathetic whining. You give us some right arguments, its OK, but we really dont need your whispering s**t what would be if designers did other way...

[Honda]

And the worst thing that its based on one pbem in which the Allies have been decisevly defeated more then a few times. Japan has expanded its industry acordinly and the flow of recources hasn't even been threatened until sumer '44. So Japan can produce much more then it was able to historicaly and its very good that the game allows it. And the Allied aircraft replacement rate creates the pool that doesn't fill in squadrons that come in as reinforcement. I tryed to stay out of this disscussion since I consider them pointless but this hit my nerve. C'mon people, it's not a faliure if you not in Tokyo by late '43!!!

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: Honda

And the worst thing that its based on one pbem in which the Allies have been decisevly defeated more then a few times.

No one wants Allied AC production changed because Andy might (or might not) be behind schedule in his game. People are looking at the real life figures for AC production, and whether these numbers differ from the game or not. The PzB-Andy game just prompted some people to look into this issue.

[Jim D Burns]

The only thing I'm going to add is a little historical perspective according to Treespiders numbers.

ORIGINAL: treespider
For all of those people that would like a comparison between the US and Japan here are the actual figures 1939-1945. Figures for the US are Totals...

US Fighters- 99,950
Japan Fighters - 30447

US produced roughly 3x as many fighters...

US Bombers - 97,810
Japanese Bombers - 15,117

US produced roughly 6.5x as many bombers...

US Reconn - 3918
Japan Reconn - 5654

Japan actually out produce the US in one category of aircraft

US Transport - 23929
Japan Transport - 2110

US produced 11x as many transports

US Trainers - 57623
Japan Trainers - 15201

So with 45 months in the historical war, we come up with these average monthly production figures for Japan:

Japan Fighters - 30447 divided by 45 months = 676.6 a month total.

Japanese Bombers - 15,117 divided by 45 months = 335.9 a month total.

Japan Reconn - 5654 divided by 45 months = 125.6 a month total.

Japan Transport - 2110 divided by 45 months = 46.8 a month total.

Total air frames per month: 1182.

I wonder what the Japanese players would think if we were to limit them to historical numbers the way they want to limit the allies all the time. Hell they don't even want the allies to get historical numbers... [8|]

Jim

[Andy Mac]

I have said it before I will probably say it again I DONT care about Jap production let em do what ever they like its more VP's when I torch em.
 
I personally dont overly care about US production you will never ever need more anyway Good Land Based Fighters by mid 43 are in huge surplus and before mid 43 they are limited broadly as they should be.
 
I do want more Hellcats (or the NF's production transferred to day units)
 
But to be honest this debate is now going round in circles and I am to some extent sorry I ever raised the Hellcat issue.
 
I am going to crush Japan in this game whatever it takes - Churchill has threatened to cut off the malt whisky (Talisker) supply if I dont manage it before the Commies come in but if it takes longer so be it (as it may the way PZB is delaying me so does anyone know a cheap alternative to Talisker available in Hawaii ?)
 
Fundamentally whether I have enough Hellcats or not merely leads to a choice whether the allies perform Historic invasions (Marianas) which give the Japanese an opportunity to decisively crush the allied fleet and create opening or grind there way forward with Paras, FT's and uber cap protected invasions with overwhelming force and overwhelming LBA I have no doubt at all I can do the latter it is just how much time I am delayed for anfd how much fun for both players.
 
Personally I think the former is more interesting and I believe PZB missed a trick by not waiting until my transports were under the gun but hey thats why the game is fun (Personally I believe  I dodged a real bullet at the marianas PZB lost a lot by scaring me off)
 
Andy

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
I am going to crush Japan in this game whatever it takes -

LOL, I wouldn't be so sure. How many US assault operations were defeated by Japan in the war after 1942? ZERO. You've had a setback in the Marianas and that Zomba something base both in mid to late 1944. Japan is far stronger than you think. He out produces you so he will win attrition battles. You may not think it's important, but WWII was won because we won the attrition battles.

It’s great that you feel so confident, but part of the reason your game is so fascinating is because of the problems you are facing. You’ve only got about 1 years game time left before you’re at the historical end date of the war. And you just ran out of F6F’s!

Don’t get me wrong I’m rooting all the way for you, but I don’t see the blowout you’re predicting materializing yet.

Jim

[SamCole]

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
It would be a full throated scream from everyone demanding that it be fgixed. But somehow when it's the Allies we hear all this "well, they don't need it" nonsense. If they were there..., PUT THEM IN!

I have quite reverse feelings. Actually what I hear NOW is a full throated scream from everyone demanding that US production need increasing. And also I hear "It's Japanese, they don't need it".

So please stop this pathetic whining. You give us some right arguments, its OK, but we really dont need your whispering s**t what would be if designers did other way...

Thank you, your reesponse and others let me know that I should take this game off my HD and quit playing. It looks like noone can even agree if the design is right or not. I will check back in another year or two to see if any agreement has been made. [&:]

[Andy Mac]

Marianas wasnt a defeat it was a deliberate strategic misdirection it was NOT A DEFEAT (At least thats what my reports to London say........)
 
Zoamboanga was another feint to draw out the Japanese fleet and crush it and it was 100% successfull (again thats what the reports home say.......casualties what casualties)
 
The real assault was always supposed to be Borneo I never intended any different and anyone who says otherwise is a dammed liar I have not been defeated all my reports agree on this matter anyone who sends reports outlining the tru.......err the alternative view of history is liable to be shot out of hand as a traitor
 
(Note Zoamboanga was my own fault I got spanked for getting over aggressive and frustrated and you cannot do that against PZB)

[Dino]

ORIGINAL: SamCole

Thank you, your reesponse and others let me know that I should take this game off my HD and quit playing. It looks like noone can even agree if the design is right or not. I will check back in another year or two to see if any agreement has been made. [&:]

The question IMO should be...Is it fun or not?

As for design...in two years we'll still be discussing zero bonus.

[Feinder]

Even in a Campaign '45 game, the production numbers for Japan seem a bit "easy".  In that, I am Japan, and airframes are not a problem.  My pilots suck (about 35 exp), and if I trigger vs. USN CVs I will lost 400 - 500 aircraft if I go against USN CVs.  And yet, I have more aircraft (and I haven't the faintest clue about production, I pretty much just leave it alone).  I don't try to attrit is Hellcats (an interesting thought, I may have to try it).  I hadn't even thought about that. 

My main goal thus far was conservation of victory points.  Feeding 400 planes vs. USN CVs to score no hits is bad trade for victory points, so I limit my attempts at that.  In fact, I've had reasonable success trying to whack his CVE groups (killed 4 CVEs thus far), with much better loss rates (about 50 planes each).  Between fighting for the bases that are actually worth VPs for me, and limiting my air losses, I'm actually doing quite well in VPs.  I have 32001 vs. 17k.  I -should- have triggered auto-victory last month, but it didn't (grr), but I really don't care.  I just want to watch him nuke me.  Either way, I'm quite confident that my opponent will -not- get auto-victory, ever.

But airframes are not a problem.  And 35 exp pilots -are- effective if you send out enough of them.

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
I am going to crush Japan in this game whatever it takes -

LOL, I wouldn't be so sure. How many US assault operations were defeated by Japan in the war after 1942? ZERO. You've had a setback in the Marianas and that Zomba something base both in mid to late 1944. Japan is far stronger than you think. He out produces you so he will win attrition battles. You may not think it's important, but WWII was won because we won the attrition battles.
Jim

Jim, i will try to say it again and hopefully help you to finally accept this game as outstanding product (despite some flaws in the design). You are mixing the game and history. I recall that someone run the AI vs AI game and announced that the outcome was quite historical! So, designers done there a decent job!
[&o]

Now, we have all ask one question? why is that that our PBEM games doesn't offer historical result, his. timeline etc...?

The answer is simple - we are well aware of mistakes commided by RL CiCs and we are not repeating them ([8|]). Also, we all "exploiting" the game engine to the certain degree - overstacking, loading troops on numerous transports, overstacking on attols, we over commiting forces for the invasion (one division on tiny atoll?????), over commiting our air force on strikes - and even going to invade places in way that it should never be invaded in RL (yes i'm talking about Zambo-PzB vs Andy - and Andy got what he deserved! I think there is no need to explain to you that such poor planed invasion would be dissaster in RL too!).

What is exploit to one it doesn't mean that it is exploit to another one. Personally, the worst exploit to me is picket ships... and i don't have illusions that everyone else could understand that - but perhaps they will understand when will be faced with 100 single TF aux ships (i learned similar stuff on my skin) in certain area.

Your view is that Japan should never score even a moral victory in 1944, and as long as you have such attitude you will always be a grumpy ol'boy[;)]. My understanding is that if the Japan done tremendous job in early period of the war than should be "awarded" with chance to delay enemy and even score some minor victories. Players usualy gets sick of the victory disease - Japanese early in the war, Allied late in the war...

So, we know that is possible to "cure" Japanese player from the victory disease early in the war, and tell me one valid reason why Allies shouldn't be "cured" as well?????

re: Japan is stronger than you think... what do you mean why certain clever head (so it is obvious that Speedy and T are out of concurention [:'(]) "invented" term "Brave Sir Robin"?

I'm just too tired to explain all over once again so here is a famous song from Monty Python. I think that all of you can get the picture (no offence).

Bravely bold Sir Robin
Rode forth from Camelot.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Robin.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin.

He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp.
Or to have his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Robin.

His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his pen--

"That's... that's enough music for now lads, there's dirty work afoot."

Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("I never!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
("You're lying!")
Swiftly taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin!

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Even in a Campaign '45 game, the production numbers for Japan seem a bit "easy".  In that, I am Japan, and airframes are not a problem.  My pilots suck (about 35 exp), and if I trigger vs. USN CVs I will lost 400 - 500 aircraft if I go against USN CVs.  And yet, I have more aircraft (and I haven't the faintest clue about production, I pretty much just leave it alone).  I don't try to attrit is Hellcats (an interesting thought, I may have to try it).  I hadn't even thought about that. 

My main goal thus far was conservation of victory points.  Feeding 400 planes vs. USN CVs to score no hits is bad trade for victory points, so I limit my attempts at that.  In fact, I've had reasonable success trying to whack his CVE groups (killed 4 CVEs thus far), with much better loss rates (about 50 planes each).  Between fighting for the bases that are actually worth VPs for me, and limiting my air losses, I'm actually doing quite well in VPs.  I have 32001 vs. 17k.  I -should- have triggered auto-victory last month, but it didn't (grr), but I really don't care.  I just want to watch him nuke me.  Either way, I'm quite confident that my opponent will -not- get auto-victory, ever.

But airframes are not a problem.  And 35 exp pilots -are- effective if you send out enough of them.

Greetings, Feinder...

I'm really sorry that you didn't started 45 AAR (what ever happend to your "normal" AAR from 1941 - it just stopped)... I will not pretend that I'm know what your opponent should do but:

a) capture Bonins, Iwo Jima (figher escort for HI)
b) send hordes of B-29 (under the cover of mighty figher escort) and bomb his:
- figher factories or
- heavy industry or
....

Believe me i don't have clue how human player could oppose to another human player in 45 campaign if Allied player uses all his assests (sp?) in the same time? Anyway, it is really encouraging that we JFB could do something in 45....

[pauk]

btw I'm apologising to Arkady to going off topic. He just wanted to show numbers and not to see another pointless debate.

[Feinder]

I'm really sorry that you didn't started 45 AAR

a 2 year old and a 4 month old are my primary time consumers are the moment. [;)] Just keeping up with turns in 4x PBEM games has proven challenging. But I'm at a good pace for now. Unfortunately, no extra time for AARs.

(what ever happend to your "normal" AAR from 1941 - it just stopped)...

Game is still going. As Allies, "I'm very pleased" with things. It's end of May of '42. If my oppenent doesn't mind me posting results, I'll update the AAR. Don't have time to do all the maps (wish I had the time), but I can post a "hit list" and some summaries if my oppent doesn't mind.

I will not pretend that I'm know what your opponent should do but:

a) capture Bonins, Iwo Jima (figher escort for HI)

I don't even know where Bonin is [;)]. Iwo, I know. I think he had an invasion TF covered by CVEs heading there. I sank a CVE, and he ran south. Probably a good thing, I have about 600 aircraft with kamikaze bandanas in range of Iwo (without actually needing to be -at- Iwo). I expect he'll be back next week with USN CVs covering. I gotta think whether I want to oppose -that- or not. Would be costly. Frankly, I've got a LOT of guys on Iwo, and lots of supplies. They can last for a LONG time.

Speaking of lasting a LONG time, I still hold Manilla with about 6+ Divisions and "low, but ample" supplies. They're not going anywhere, any time soon.

b) send hordes of B-29 (under the cover of mighty figher escort) and bomb his:
- figher factories or
- heavy industry or

No fighters in range of Home Islands yet. My 35exp pilots have done a number on his B-29s. Kill ratio is about 4 of him, to 1 of me (includes the ops losses from the damges and the long flight home). You -can't- send B-29s (or anything else) unescoreted vs. 300 sucky Frank pilots. You -will- die. He tried bombing a ship yard at HI. I lost about 250 planes. Him about 60 Hellcats. A hard exchange in numbers, but he -did- retreat, and I can replace the losses.

I expect that campturing Iwo was intended to be a base for fighters. We'll see. I have a plan for that.

Frankly, I'm going to invade Seattle in about 6 weeks. Laugh if you like. I'm going to capture it (and Vanc). I probably won't get much farther south. But I'm going invade it, and hold it (and defend the Home Islands). If he drops "the bomb" on Kure, I'll be in a position to execute the populations of Vanc and Seattle. "Insta-reinforcements come 6 months early! Japan will lose!" (bzzzzt!) It's the end of the war. There isn't 6 months of reinformcents for him to draw...

:^)

Believe me i don't have clue how human player could oppose to another human player in 45 campaign if Allied player uses all his assests (sp?) in the same time? Anyway, it is really encouraging that we JFB could do something in 45....

Campagin '45 OB is borked. For both sides. I "found" Combined Fleet HQ + 2 Air HQ defending Taytay (island off PI). Just sitting there. Nothing else. No other defenders, not even an SNFL Btn. No base force. Just a huge conference of Admirals and Generals waiting to be invaded. My opponent has similar problems. Everythign is "scrambled". I'd bet he's just now (3 months into game), getting things together so he can invade something.

Am I getting called a JFB? (* giggles *) Well, that's a first.

Play on!
-F-

[pauk]

i hate to say but Oli didn't played well there. I would never make such mistake as he did with only CVEs covering Iwo invasion..it seems that he underestimated a strength of wounded bear!

No, you arent called JFB[;)]. I've tried to say that we who actually play Japan for real can hope for something.[:)]

[Honda]

Now, I'm no numbers freak but if Japan can reach the top in ac production in '44 with resources dwindling why couldn't it go over it if the resources are not threatened and regularly supllied?
And Allied numbers being less then historical? Come up with exact numbers of planes serving in PTO and we'll discuss it. We can even put aside the ridiculously overpowered Corsair issue aside.

[mefi]

Arkady - forgive me for some quick maths, but do I make that roughly 2700 planes per month? Which is roughly 32 400 planes per year in 1943?

That means your Japanese economy has bettered the peak Japanese production which occurred in 1944 (28180 being the peak).

In itself, that is fine. I have no problems whatsoever with Japan being able to tailor and play with its economy to maximise any ahistorical gains or even 'fine tune' problems which held back historical production.

However, the problem is that the Allies cannot similarly tailor production. Which creates a scenario where one side is able to max out on ahistorical aspects of economy whilst the other is held back by some predefined 'historical' production figures. That isn't equitable to allow Japan free rein and the allies have to repeat 'history'.

The game at the moment is a stomp for Japan until 1943 (with a small chance of an auto-victory) and then a stomp for the Allies until 1945 (with a huge chance of victory).

I can understand that Allied players want the historical numbers of planes at the very minimum (and I guesstimate using very conservative numbers they are at least 20 000 planes down from where they should be) and I would back anyone giving it to them. Because by the time those planes make a difference (and made a difference historically) in 1944, I'm just playing to give my opponent the satisfaction of nuking me or to try out an invasion of the home isles; not out of any expectation of getting a result from the game. No auto-victory = defeat by a thousand cuts as it is. More planes for the US from 1944 onwards will change nothing other than the speed of my defeat. Perhaps that would be a good thing - I only get to stomp for 18 months or so, an Allied player gets a good 24 months+ of stomping. That just isn't fair - increase Japanese stomping time! [;)]

Just for the record, I play Japan not the Allies out of preference. I'm well used to the long defeat. I think there is a strong streak of masochism in every Japan player.

[SamCole]

ORIGINAL: Dino

ORIGINAL: SamCole

Thank you, your reesponse and others let me know that I should take this game off my HD and quit playing. It looks like noone can even agree if the design is right or not. I will check back in another year or two to see if any agreement has been made. [&:]

The question IMO should be...Is it fun or not?

As for design...in two years we'll still be discussing zero bonus.
[&:]

Not much fun. I bought this game over a year ago and the AI is not good at all. I will not start a PBEm game until they solve some of the issues present( not to mention the bugs ). I see "discussions?" like this one and I know I do not want to devote a bunch of time in a PBEM when I have to have a huge list of house rules to make the game 'fair?' And even then, there does not seem to be much agreement on fixes or even house rules.