Soviet strategy

[Kuniworth]

Can some experienced soviet-players give tips and hints? I find it hard to defend in 3.101, how should defence be conducted?

come on Josan tell us all your secrets!

[Josans]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Can some experienced soviet-players give tips and hints? I find it hard to defend in 3.101, how should defence be conducted?

come on Josan tell us all your secrets!

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My secrets before the tournament? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[czerpak]

My strategy, which haven't been fully tested yet :
1 save as much units as you can by withdrawing them and forming new defensive line
2. small armies (one division in it) used to cut rail lines and dye after that
3. PRAY for rain and blizzards

The last one most important <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Maciej

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:
Can some experienced soviet-players give tips and hints? I find it hard to defend in 3.101, how should defence be conducted?

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The only thing that seems to work was to form one-division "suicide" armies whose job was to cut the supply lines of advancing armor even if it meant destruction by German infantry. It doesn't always work, that depends on how much effort your opponent is willing to put into responding to that tactic, but it seems to slow the panzers down as much as doing anything else, and much more significantly, it also means the wholesale destruction of the Soviet Army doesn't happen. If you know you're going to lose the army no matter what you put in it, why not keep it to just one weak infantry division? Its also a little disturbing as I can't imagine this is realistic, but in 3.101 the Germans seem so strong in the blitzkrieg....

If there is a better way I'd really like to know.

[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Ed Cogburn ]</p>

[Jens Heiberg]

Ed, there's no better way than cutting the panzer spearheads supply. But than again, I guess Guderian would never have advanced as far as my opponents do with no security what so ever...

Jens

[MagnusOlsson]

Also, since the russians tend to ignore orders 1941´, you often end up with those units stuck in the middle of nowhere doing nothing.

I'd opt for not transferring factories and using the rail to build up a line of defence around moscow and down to rostov. If you have a good opponent, you will not be able to save Leningrad anyway.

If you can spot a strategy (ie a drive towards Moscow or to the south with all panzers ) then you might want to gamble on that and leave a thinner defence in the end with no german mobile units, thus being able to include a larger part of USSR.

/Magnus

[Lorenzo from Spain]

Some more Russian tactics:

- To defend Leningrad: the easy way to conquer Leningrad is to cut the line supply trough Tikvin to Vologda, at the cost of a Pz korp not only will fall Leningrad, but all the north of Russia will be out of supply. The railroad from Demiansk to the east is not easy to defend, but there are mountains and swamps at the flanks: placing there strong forces is possible to cut the German supply line, stopping the German advance.

- When falls Kiev, to try to defend the south will spend a lot of men. The next good defensive place is Rostov: this city can and must be defended.

- Even with Moscow in danger, save 2-3 full strong and experienced armies with tanks, to the winter counterattack. The fall of Moscow is a disaster, but if the Red Army can´t do a good winter offensive, the Soviets will lose the entire war.

- In the previous version, I employed the railroad to prepare the Kiev and Moscow defenses; leaving the factories. But in this version, Moscow will fall with strong probabilities even using railroads to send forces, so the factories have priority.
Now I´m preparing a new reinforcement tactic for defend Moscow that may be will work. Someone want to play PEBM as German to test it?

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by Lorenzo from Spain:
Some more Russian tactics:

...................
- Even with Moscow in danger, save 2-3 full strong and experienced armies with tanks, to the winter counterattack. The fall of Moscow is a disaster, but if the Red Army can´t do a good winter offensive, the Soviets will lose the entire war.
......................

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Lorenzo

Your ideas sound spot on and i'd like to expand on one of them.
Several months back i started 3 '41 games as german (all V3.0 and thus harder for the axis) that changed to V3.101 about sept/oct '41.
2 of those have lead to german victories by late '42/early '43 with the third still going in late '42 with the axis contolling Stalingrad, advancing on Saratov and sweeping into the Caucasus. Most of the german success in these games results from the strength of the germans at start of '42 summer.

In all i have discovered that it is absolutely critical for the soviet player to cause as much dammage to the Axis as possible during the blizzard turns of '41/'42 and to continue attacking relentlessly up to the german summer season of '42. If the soviets dont cripple german strength during this time then a carefull german will grind the soviets down during '42 till they
have little offencive power left and end up being driven from the victory cities.

So far the 2 Possum '41 games i'm in as soviets seem to give the axis a better chance than V3.0 to take the big cities but also if the soviet is carefull he can stop them(or at least hang on to Moscow) and have sufficient strength remaining to cause big problems for the axis during blizzard.

Thus i see it('41 possum game) as the best ballance found so far.

I will try out Mists new '41 game to see how that works in PBEM but at this time is i count the standard V3.101 as not worth playing and definately not suitable for a tournament.

Nick

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]</p>

[alfmdoncel]

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir:


but at this time is i count the standard V3.101 as not worth playing and definately not suitable for a tournament.

Nick

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Lokioftheaesir ]

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I am playing my first 4 PBEM games, all of them as Soviet player. I consider myself a novice player, and i wanted to learn from the supposedly more difficult side. One of the games is stopped in September due to health problems of my dear opponent. The other three are already in 1942, and in all of them I hold both Leningrad and Moscow, so perhaps i am not lost after all. I have used no HQ mules nor dummy suicide armies... My conclusion is that it is not so easy for the average German player to crush the Soviets. Perhaps German side is more difficult to play and therefore a very experienced player is required in order to observe the claimed unbalance. Between average or unexperienced players, the balance may well be on the soviet side. Perhaps the forum is biased towards very experienced players (most of the posts are made by the same dozen or so players) but perhaps their feelings dont reflect the experiences of the majority.
And of course, WIR is absolutely worth playing!!!
I encourage the novices as me to write here their opinions, so we can get a more complete picture.

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by Alfonso M:

I am playing my first 4 PBEM games, all of them as Soviet player. I consider myself a novice player, and i wanted to learn from the supposedly more difficult side. One of the games is stopped in September due to health problems of my dear opponent. The other three are already in 1942, and in all of them I hold both Leningrad and Moscow, so perhaps i am not lost after all. I have used no HQ mules nor dummy suicide armies... My conclusion is that it is not so easy for the average German player to crush the Soviets. Perhaps German side is more difficult to play and therefore a very experienced player is required in order to observe the claimed unbalance. Between average or unexperienced players, the balance may well be on the soviet side. Perhaps the forum is biased towards very experienced players (most of the posts are made by the same dozen or so players) but perhaps their feelings dont reflect the experiences of the majority.
And of course, WIR is absolutely worth playing!!!
I encourage the novices as me to write here their opinions, so we can get a more complete picture.

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Alfonso

My only experience of V3.101 was as soviets and i was wiped. The german player was experienced.

My opinion 'is' based mainly on what i hear on this board. Any other opinions on V3.101 ballance are very welcome.

Nick

[BrickReid]

I have found good success by placing strong armor/infantry combined forces in front of the advancing panzers AFTER you reach a line that runs vertically along the middle of the swamp region (I don't have a map handy or I'd give a name - and my memory sucks).

To do this you must have a strong 'H' shaped defense. The left side of the H is your front line, the connector in the middle is a Very strong 2 unit deep line that connects your front line to your second line, and the right side of the H is a second very weak line that is digging in for you to transfer your units into as you withdraw and keep leapfrogging the H backwards in a fighting withdrawal.

The key is to have within the front line units and the connector units: 2 tank units that have your better tank types within them combined with 3-4 strong infantry units that have arty and AT.

The 2nd key is that the connector units are centered on any likely cutoff manuever the panzers are likely to perform. Hopefully the front line will hold, BUT, if it doesn't, the connector units will prevent a cutoff from occuring and you can pull your units out by transferring them back to the second line ONLY after the situation becomes unbearable. Don't withdraw just because a panzer corps is in your backfield. Try to reform the line and cut him off if you can. Use the 2nd line to contain him from running roughshod in the backfield.

IN GENERAL:
1.Keep a layered defense (after the initial onslaught and you have regrouped and minimized opening move losses)

2.Keep Stavka and RVGK cleared of all troops EVERY TURN. Not only are your new units and east front units trying to enter there, but your reformed divisions that had been smashed are coming in there too. If it fills up, you won't receive any new units until you clear them out.

3.Get your Aircraft back from the front and selectively deploy them (en mass) as you are able under the following conditions: a. you need a critical few turns of extra stopping power against a strong series of attacks. And b. the enemy is neglecting his air superiority in an area to concentrate his air attack (by deploying a large airforce to his weak spot he will have to disperse his concentrated air power if he wants to attack in that area at all).

4. Get your best generals deployed to critical areas. Use your weaker generals in the less intense areas. Kill the rest <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> (if you ever get Stalin to step down and he becomes available in the pool --ASSIGN HIM TO A RESERVE HQ

5. Watch out for envelopments on a large scale as well as 1-2 unit envelopments. (I'm playing a game now where I cut off over 25 Soviet armies by taking Kursk from the South - I plotted 5 hexes with a line of panzer korps from one hex south of Kharkov AND taking Orel - I plotted 5 hexes with a wide swath from a area near and between Smolensk and Vyazma. Note that their remained a 3 wide gap between my North and South panzers that did not matter because I had cut the rail lines and the enemy was still holding Kiev, Gomel, and Bryansk at the time. It made for a rather large bulge pocket that no units escaped from. It was very difficult for me, as the germans, to manage to hold my panzers in cutoff positions with very low supplies while using my infantry in 4-5 weeks of mopup operations.) Anyway, grand maneuvering can be done by someone who plans it well or has a little wider view of things. I had planned the operation for 2 months once I had seen that my opponent was going to contest kiev with much larger forces than I was willing to put into taking it.

6. Dig in. place your defense lines well in advance so that you can get some entrenchment from them before the germans arrive. This takes planning and the sacrifice of using having to put divisions into those armies. Just use your understrength 20-30 quality units that you will have plenty of.

When winter (first snow) sets in: you will be able to do much more plotting, select targets of opportunity or major necessity - don't attack the panzers in anything but Blizzard conditions - you'll lose - bad.
7. Blizzard:attack, attack, attack for at least 2 turns AFTER the last blizzard happens. And, keep reserves that you can replace spent units with so you can keep attacking and attacking.

8. Have goals in mind of where you want to be in x,y,and z number of turns (short, medium and long range plans). Look for and plan opportunities to cut off the enemy or force him to give up large areas to keep from being cutoff. Look for 1-2 corps cutoff opportunities to force him back (he will lose his entrenchment if he moves or the units if he doesn't).

9.For all armies that have panzers ANYWHERE near them: Make sure they have at least one 600+ strength tank corps in them. And 2 -with modern tanks - in units that are adjacent to them.

10. Hell, that's enough. Goodnight, and happy new year. What a boring life I must have.

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: BrickReid ]</p>

[CRAZY_HORSE007]

Thanks BrickReid

What a magistral lesson you give us. Never thinking about the H theory. But is it works on the ground? Looks like difficult to form when you do not know where the panzer spearhead is heading for.

BTW interesting alternative.

For me blizzard and rain are the key of a good soviet defense. Must be lucky with them or you lose the game without contest. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">