Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

User avatar
ChezDaJez
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Chehalis, WA

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by ChezDaJez »

But don't let yourself get distracted. My point was that the USN was not adverse to exercising, either in fleet problems, or as individual units, in the North Pacific.

I absolutely agree that US forces were not adverse to operating north of Hawaii. Mike bases his abrupt dismissal of even the possibility of a carrier operating in that region on the weather and on "no logical reason for being there." By who's definition are we defining "logical?" Most admirals I knew didn't seem to know what the word "logical" meant.

First the weather front. It was not a strong weather front and and consisted of mainly low clouds and rain. Winds were no more than 40 knots. The front passed through PH on the 6th. When the Japanese launched on the 7th, their ships were still covered by low clouds but the rain and winds had greatly moderated. The weather over Pearl on the 7th was partly cloudy. These hardly severe enough conditions to prevent any ship from operating in them. Indeed at that time of year, this is pretty much the typical pattern around Hawaii. So weather wouldn't prevent the US from operating ships north of Pearl.

I would submit that there is any number of logical reasons for a fleet to be operating there. Considering the numerous war warnings, it is quite possible and logical that a US carrier force (or other warships) could have been assigned to patrol the northern approaches to Hawaii for early warning, just for training purposes or in transit to Alaskan waters. It could have been the perfect ambush position in which to strike the Japanese fleet during the attack had they been located.

I doubt Mike has ever been in the Navy. In all my years of service, only once have I ever seen a training exercise cancelled due to weather and that was due to the remmanants of a typhoon east of Japan. I have no reason to believe that the Navy of the thirties and forties was any more likely to cancel.

Chez

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Terminus »

I was never in the Navy either, but might it not have been possible that flight operations would have been curtailed by 40-knot winds, low cloud and rain, back in the winter of '41? Asking because I don't know...
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
User avatar
ChezDaJez
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Chehalis, WA

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by ChezDaJez »

I was never in the Navy either, but might it not have been possible that flight operations would have been curtailed by 40-knot winds, low cloud and rain, back in the winter of '41? Asking because I don't know...

Sure it is possible. A cautious commander may decide the risk wasn't worth it. But I have also been launched in IFR conditions from Adak to prosecute a sub in peacetime. Now that's scary!

It would actually be the sea state that would have the biggest effect on air operations. For surface ships launching float planes, the sea state is critical for a safe launch and recovery. For carriers, sea state is less critical but still important. If the carrier steams into the wind, a higher wind speed is actually beneficial as it means a shorter takeoff run.

If you have ever seen videos of the Doolittle raid launching from the Hornet, you can see that the clouds, wind and rain weren't the concern. It was the pitching deck that caused the army aircrews to suck up their seat cushions but the B-25s all made it off safely.

On 7 Dec 41, the Japanese launched their aircraft into low clouds and rain showers and used homing devices to find PH and return to their carriers. Not one aircraft was lost during lauch and recovery so conditions obviously weren't that bad when you consider the planes taking off were all heavily laden and some of those returning were battle damaged. The sky was only partly cloudy over Pearl but 100% overcast north of Pearl.

The main point here is that the weather north of Hawaii wasn't bad enough to prevent flight ops.

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
User avatar
Terminus
Posts: 39781
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:53 pm
Location: Denmark

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Terminus »

I've seen the Doolittle video... That first B-25 looks like it had about 11 yards to get airborne![X(]
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
Mike Scholl
Posts: 6187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: mlees
NO it isn't. Steam north into bad weather and rough seas for "training"? Planes and pilots are expensive (as were torpedoes..., and we know where that led); why add to the risk of losses? In your eagerness to get some US CV's wrecked you are postulating the rediculous. There is one rational "what if" that puts a US CV in Kido Butai's sights..., and that is if the Enterprise Group hadn't been held up a day and had sailed into Pearl on the evening of the 6th. The rest is just "pie-in-the-sky" fanboyism. Like my suggestion of KB wrecking a couple of CV's on French Frigate Shoals through a night navigation error. That's silly..., but so is your "let's say a US CV was screwing around 500 miles north of Oahu for no understandable reason".

Respectfully, sir, it is not "ridiculuous" assumption that the Americans would excercise north of Hawaii.

https://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/1969 ... -Wadle.pdf

In Grand Joint Excercise 4 (GJE40), in February 1932, Lex and Sara operated both north and south of Oahu to "attack" Pearl Harbor. (Described on page 80 of the above PDF.)
Later that year, Fleet Problem XIII, units based in Pearl were to attack the US West Coast. The opposing fleets engaged in the waters far north, and eventually east, of Hawaii.
In Phase 2 of Fleet Problem XIX, March of 1938, Saratoga repeats the PH attack, from a point 100 miles north of Oahu. (Phase 1 involved a carrier battle around the Hawaiian waters between Lex and Sara. Phase 3 involved Sara and Lex operating versus "enemy" bases in the Sab Fran area, but again maneuvering out of the shipping lanes north north-east of Hawaii, attempting to avoid detection.)
The USN was not as timid in getting their ships banged up as you seem to indicate.

All of which is true..., and all of which is meaningless. The US Navy was not conducting a Fleet exercise or a wargame on the weekend of December 6-7th. The CV's were engaged in ferrying aircraft, and the rest of the fleet in weekend liberty. As you pointed out, during the wargames of the 30's, the US had used the "northern approach" to achieve "suprise" in the same manner (and for the same reasons) that Kido Butai was during December of 1941. But for "peacetime" aircrew training during the ferrying operations, going North makes no sense. South offers better weather and sea conditions, insuring more and safer training operations. So I repeat, the ONLY reason for a US CV to be 500 miles North of Oahu on the first weekend of December 1941 is to allow the Japanese to sink it. It is not a realistic situation to postulate for a "what if". And I gave a realistic one as well with the Enterprise Group returning as scheduled to PH...., for those which want to deal with such things.
User avatar
Daniel Oskar
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:00 am

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Daniel Oskar »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I was never in the Navy either, but might it not have been possible that flight operations would have been curtailed by 40-knot winds, low cloud and rain, back in the winter of '41? Asking because I don't know...

I was a Marine helo driver, so this may be apples and oranges, but the ships I was deployed with were always able to steam in such a manner as to make the relative wind over the deck conform to our wind envelopes for launch and recovery. What smashed our bag for flight operations was usually exceeding pitch and roll limits. As for getting back aboard under IFR conditions, I don't know that there were procedures in effect back in the 40's.
User avatar
ChezDaJez
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Chehalis, WA

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by ChezDaJez »

As for getting back aboard under IFR conditions, I don't know that there were procedures in effect back in the 40's.

No, there were no effective procedures for landing IFR back then. Pretty much screwed under those conditions.

However, IFR conditions did not exist where the Japanese fleet was at the time of the attack on PH, just low clouds (1000' ceiling) and CAVU above about 4000'. Pearl itself had scattered clouds with bases above 10k.

Weather was not a significant factor beyond providing the Japanese fleet a place to hide beneath.

BTW, I think I would much rather take a cat and a trap rather than land on a ship in a bird without stationary wings!

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
User avatar
mlees
Posts: 2263
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:14 am
Location: San Diego

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by mlees »

The US Navy was not conducting a Fleet exercise or a wargame on the weekend of December 6-7th.

I was only quoting scource material that you can look up yourself. I dont have access to the ships navigational logs for the whole of 1941. I believe that if I could, I could show you times were ships exercised north of Hawaii. You do not seem to think that they did. Is that because they were not there on that fateful weekend? Just because I am not out in front of my house every time the mail man comes by does not mean I will never be, or that I actively avoid being there at all other times.
The CV's were engaged in ferrying aircraft, and the rest of the fleet in weekend liberty.

The "purpose" the what-if's is to have an intellectual exercise to discuss, or war play, situations that might have occured differently. We know were they actually were, and why...
As you pointed out, during the wargames of the 30's, the US had used the "northern approach" to achieve "suprise" in the same manner (and for the same reasons) that Kido Butai was during December of 1941. But for "peacetime" aircrew training during the ferrying operations, going North makes no sense.

Let's say Halsey has orders to report to dry dock, Bremerton, on 31 December. He receives his orders, and they indicate that he should conduct ASW and carrier landing quals on the way. Where does he go? South? Nope. too far to make it to Bremerton by the given date. So he goes North. He also, coincidently, wants to avoid those same shipping lanes the Japanese are avoiding. (A carrier needs some serious sea room if it need to steam into the wind for a couple hours. Best if there are few civilian boats around to get in the way.)

Why is that so unbelievable? Because it didn't happen historically, on the date in question?
South offers better weather and sea conditions, insuring more and safer training operations.

The seas within 500 miles to the North of Hawaii have roughly the same weather "zones" and sea states as the seas to the south. The weather is roughly similar as far north Latitude as Midway. I am not saying that these areas will be covered by the same storm. I am saying that they share the same weather and sea state characteristics.

The waters south of Hawaii were not any more favorable for exercising than those north, other than the fact that the PH channel faces south.

"So why did the fleet remain south of Hawaii at the end of '41?"
Lack of fleet oilers. Good gunnery and bombing range in Lahaina Roads, very near Oahu. Maybe even a little bit of peacetime sloppiness in the Operational Staff work.
So I repeat, the ONLY reason for a US CV to be 500 miles North of Oahu on the first weekend of December 1941 is to allow the Japanese to sink it. It is not a realistic situation to postulate for a "what if".

"What if" Halsey took the Enterprise "east, then south" to return to Hawaii, instead of "south, then east"? No reason for him not to. If the Japanese were able to sail their carriers in the sea state NE and E of Midway, so too could the Americans.

Basically, the way I am looking at this: Just because the Japanese did not bump into any US ships North of Hawaii does not mean the US Navy never sailed there. They picked the "least likely" path for them to encounter someone. Not the path where it is "impossible" for them to encounter someone.

edited for spelling errors.
Hunter2006
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:26 am

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Hunter2006 »


This is an iteresting thread, but I think it ignores what was going on elsewhere...

Maybe I am wrong here, but didn't the Japs invade the Phillipines a few hours before the PH attack actually happened? If my memory serves me correctly, this indeed happened and therefore, there was no option for Nagumo to run away and hope for a better day. He HAD to attack and attack fiercely. I think the fact that he did not launch successive attacks is indicative of his fear of US CVs being "out there somewhere".

Embarking on a mission with that many ships and with that many resources, I dont think that "ooops... we been spotted" would have been sufficient cause for him to turn home and have to commit hari kurri as an apology to the emperer.

Can someone back me up on this timeline that Japan was launching invasions all over US/allied territory by the time the PH event actually happened?


"Terrorism, more often than not, comes from the quill of pen and not the barrel of a gun".

"If you cherish life over liberty, and are willing to live on your knees, please email me some pic's of your daughters."
el cid again
Posts: 16983
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by el cid again »

I doubt Mike has ever been in the Navy. In all my years of service, only once have I ever seen a training exercise cancelled due to weather and that was due to the remmanants of a typhoon east of Japan. I have no reason to believe that the Navy of the thirties and forties was any more likely to cancel.

The US Navy does not run exercises in bad weather. Only one navy before WWII - or now - does that - the Japanese navy. Japan pays the price in lives lost EVERY YEAR because they believe in it. And I did serve in the Navy - and knew/know a fair number of admirals. I have no clue why you "never met an admiral who was 'logical'"? But I never met one who was not.

In your defense, however, I think it WAS logical to patrol NW of Hawaii - due to weather patterns and Japanese training doctrine!

el cid again
Posts: 16983
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:40 pm

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by el cid again »

Maybe I am wrong here, but didn't the Japs invade the Phillipines a few hours before the PH attack actually happened?

You are wrong in detail but right in spirit: It was Malaya they invaded just before - too close to know about though.
User avatar
jwilkerson
Posts: 8241
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:02 am
Location: Kansas
Contact:

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by jwilkerson »

I have no clue why you "never met an admiral who was 'logical'"? But I never met one who was not.


[:D][:D][:D]

At least we got some humor goin' in this thread !

WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
Mike Scholl
Posts: 6187
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: mlees
Basically, the way I am looking at this: Just because the Japanese did not bump into any US ships North of Hawaii does not mean the US Navy never sailed there. They picked the "least likely" path for them to encounter someone. Not the path where it is "impossible" for them to encounter someone.

edited for spelling errors.

FINE GENTLEMEN..., make up whatever nonsense you want. How about tossing in "Godzilla eats the Lexington"? "Kimmel orders all his ships to steam slowly around the island while Pearl Harbor is being cleaned"? "Colorado and Saratoga skip their re-fits and steam to Oahu so they can be sunk too"? "All the ships at Pearl have their double bottoms opened up for inspection on Monday". "The PH Tank Farms have all just been washed down with AvGas to clean off the oily residue---one spark and they all explode"?

OK..., I'm being rediculous. But so are you. Yes, it's not IMPOSSIBLE that Kido Butai could have met something even though they were taking the northern route. But of several thousand ships sailing the Pacific that weekend..., why a CV? Are you willing to say that the odds are at least 50:1 that whatever they met WOULD get off a sighting report; but WOULDN'T be a CV? Or that if it happened to be a submarine it might have torpedoed the Kaga? All the possibilities you have offered have been pro-Japanese. A true "what if" goes both ways..., sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts.
User avatar
mlees
Posts: 2263
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:14 am
Location: San Diego

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by mlees »

OK..., I'm being rediculous. But so are you. Yes, it's not IMPOSSIBLE that Kido Butai could have met something even though they were taking the northern route. But of several thousand ships sailing the Pacific that weekend..., why a CV? Are you willing to say that the odds are at least 50:1 that whatever they met WOULD get off a sighting report; but WOULDN'T be a CV? Or that if it happened to be a submarine it might have torpedoed the Kaga? All the possibilities you have offered have been pro-Japanese. A true "what if" goes both ways..., sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts.

Sigh. Actually, I am an Allied fanboy.

The Original Poster (OP) asked, if I may be allowed to paraphrase, "What were Nagumo orders if spotted before launching?".

Some replies posted the actual operational orders, translated.

I think the general consensus was that, if the contact was made by a civilian ship, or some other weak opponent, Nagumo would blow it out of the water and keep going on to PH according to his orders.

The OP himself, in post #4, asked what do you think would have happened if the contact was with a US CV. From there, I speculated on what I thought was a likely course of action (post #7). I tried to think up some reasons why a US carriers might be in those areas. You called them balderdash. And here we are...

I did not include time warps, Klingons, elite US Navy Strippers (Dancer, exotic, female, 1 each) employed as distractions, or FDR arranging it so PH could happen. I tried to keep it within the realms of reasonable possibility.

I understand that you disagree with those possibilties actually happening. Arguing about it is merely an intellectual exercise, as far as I am concerned. If you remain unconvinced, I will not take it personally.

But I ask you, why do we play this game? Isn't that a big what-if?
bradfordkay
Posts: 8684
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:39 am
Location: Olympia, WA

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by bradfordkay »

Mike, I can't agree with you at all. It is not completely ridiculous to postulate that insteead of shipping fighters to Midway and Wake Kimmel might have ordered his carriers to patrol the waters northwest of Oahu. After all, the earlier exercises had produced attacks from this direction - so why wouldn't he think about sending a carrier patrol out in that direction?
fair winds,
Brad
User avatar
ChezDaJez
Posts: 3293
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Chehalis, WA

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by ChezDaJez »

The US Navy does not run exercises in bad weather. Only one navy before WWII - or now - does that - the Japanese navy. Japan pays the price in lives lost EVERY YEAR because they believe in it.

I strongly disagree about not conducting exercises in bad weather! Make that most strongly disagree. I've been part of many, many national and international ASW exercises that were conducted in storm conditions. One was Exercise Testgate 80, an exercise designed to test NATO's ability to interdict submarines transitting through the Straits of Gibraltar. Atlantiques, Nimrods and P-3s were flying in and out of Gibraltar in 40-50 knot winds and driving rain. 2 Brit and 2 US frigates patrolled each side of the strait. The ships operating to the west of the straits were taking it green over the bow with 15-20 foot seas yet they continued to bang away with their sonars (much to my chagrin).

RIMPAC 83 was another. Flying out of Adak in search of a Japanese diesel submarine operating about 700 miles SW of Adak in a full gale was no fun. We were bounced around so bad in the turbulence at 5000' that we couldn't even fill out our search logs. The carrier we were supposed to be working with shut down flight ops but we didn't. We ended up diverting into Shemya that night because of the wind and snow back at base.

I can believe that amphibious exercises might be cancelled under such conditions but as I said before, I can only remember 1 ASW exercise being cancelled due to weather. And that was a joint US Navy / JMSDF ASW exercise conducting a dual prosecution of a US nuc.
And I did serve in the Navy - and knew/know a fair number of admirals. I have no clue why you "never met an admiral who was 'logical'"? But I never met one who was not.

My comment was meant to be humerous. But seeing that you didn't take it that way, I'm sorry. Logic, however, is in the eye of the beholder so I will give a few choice examples from my navy experiences:

I found it illogical to be launched while standing an ASW ready alert in Jacksonville, FL to pick up an admiral's potted palms in Key West and ferry them to Norfolk on a Sunday afternoon. We carried a full crew and full ASW load "just in case."

I also found it illogical to ferry a group of admirals from San Diego to Pearl Harbor so that they could play golf. We were on the ground just 15 hours (almost minimum crew rest) and had a 0100 Sunday preflight to bring them back so that they would be rested for Monday morning.

We also once had to conduct a VIP flight for an admiral from Moffett Field to Atsugi, Japan. I found it illogical, ludicrous and extremely uncaring of the SOB to come onboard and have his aide inform the crew that the admiral would be occupying the galley and crew area in the tail and was not to be disturbed. We were absolutely refused permission to go past the curtain that was rigged up. That meant we were unable to get a cup of coffee or even retrieve our box lunches for the full 15 hour flight. Not only that but the SOB brought his own personal steward onboard and the smell of breakfast and lunch cooking wafted through the aircraft. My stomach was growling and grumbling the whole way.

And the real doozy? Having to unload nearly 300 pounds of spare parts and tools at Lajes when returning from a Sigonella deployment just so that we could load 10 cases of Mateus wine for CincLantFlt. We had to deliver it to Norfolk for the admiral to pick up BEFORE we could return to Jacksonville to see our loved ones after 6 months overseas. Can you spell "p i s s e d o f f!?"

To be fair, most admirals and commodores I met were pretty good men and excellent politicians but there were some idiots among them too.
In your defense, however, I think it WAS logical to patrol NW of Hawaii - due to weather patterns and Japanese training doctrine!

Now, this we agree on!

Chez

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98
User avatar
mlees
Posts: 2263
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:14 am
Location: San Diego

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by mlees »

I strongly disagree about not conducting exercises in bad weather! Make that most strongly disagree.

As a member of "ships company", USS Ranger, CV61, from 1986 to 1989, I can verify that the ship conducted flight ops in "foul weather" and heavy seas. The ship would avoid typhoons, but anything less was fair game. Yes, the ship suffered superficial structural damage as a result, and the CO was not cashiered.

Now, I understand that the USN in the eighties was different in both material and doctrine from that of the thirties. (I had refrained from offering my anectdotal experiences as "evidence" based on this.) But not that much, in my opinion. The peacetime CO's and Admrials are just as "Political and Career Oriented" now, as then. But I could be wrong.

However, as I understand it: the Navy realised, then, as now, that weather is something the Navy needs to learn to operate in. (Typhoons aside, again.)

The Japanese did not "exercise" in Typhoons. That is to say, when a Typhoon blew up, they battened down the hatches and manuevered their ships with the weather as the primary concern. They did not shoot guns or fly planes in Typhoons any more than others did.

There was a couple Typhoons that caught their fleet at sea (during exercises) in the twenties and thirties. They handled their ships with full regard for the sea state. Some of these ships received extensive damage, and revealed weaknesses with welding techniques of the day. Were you thinking of these, el cid?
User avatar
Nikademus
Posts: 22517
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Alien spacecraft

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I also found it illogical to ferry a group of admirals from San Diego to Pearl Harbor so that they could play golf

Thats taxpayer's money paying for that round of golf.....can i write that off on my taxes this year, with interest? [:D]
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by mogami »

Hi, I went through 2 hurricanes on an FFG. (we were part of screen for CV)
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
Ursa MAior
Posts: 1414
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:10 am
Location: Hungary, EU

RE: Quick curiousity - What were KBs orders on 12-05?

Post by Ursa MAior »

In reply to an earlier post the japanese have only realized that THE CV was the most important warship only after Midway, same time the USN I think. According to SS the IJN looked at CVs as disposable assets to weaken the main US battleline. Same as with subs.
Image
Art by the amazing Dixie
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”