CHS 2.04 475th FG

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Well, if they were in fact stood up in Australia, then they should appear there.

I think that depends on where the air/ground personnel and the aircraft come from. If they are gathered from a number of places, including from within SWPAC/Australia itself, then having the squadrons appear in Australia is a good idea. If most or all of the squadron components were shipped in from the USA in dribs and drabs, then I would prefer to start them in the USA.

Andrew

[worr]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

If most or all of the squadron components were shipped in from the USA in dribs and drabs, then I would prefer to start them in the USA.

Six of one - half a dozen of another. But it does free up shipping. But bascialy the end result is much the same. Hence, no doubt the 4/15 date for shipping time. But you still would have to unpack, and repair.

I'd rather have them start in Brisbane because that is where they started. Then use the later date...instead of thea activation date.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: worr
Six of one - half a dozen of another. But it does free up shipping. But bascialy the end result is much the same.

Well, not quite, in my view. If the units were put together from mainly existing sources in Australa/SWPAC, then starting them in Australia makes sense. But if they were put together using men and materiel mainly shipped in from the USA, then what would have happened if the strategic situation was radically different in mid-1942 to what it was in real life? Perhaps they would have shipped everything somewhere else instead?

Or what if the convoys containing the squadron componenets were intercepted and sunk by Japanese convoy raiders (most unlikely in RL but many players use all or part of the KB for this)?

On the other hand, if most of the squadron componenets were put together from assets already in Australia/SWPAC, the units should start there regardless. And you are correct that in this case the arrival date should be made later, to at least June by the looks of it.

If it is half-and-half, then it is more of a judgement call.

Andrew

[worr]

Agreed.
 
But that's why you get paid the big bucks.
 
 
 

[worr]

I would suggest working the date backwards. The 475th FG was moved forward August 4, 1943 to Port Morsbey and began combat operations as soon as they were deployed.

So go with July 27...which if you read above was the June 26th date plus three weeks for the rest of the group to form up. That means you have one week to fill out the rest of the squadron with more P-38Gs from the pool and fresh pilots too as well as rebuild them at Brisbane.

I find the date of combat operations more convincing than the date of activation.

[bradfordkay]

Andrew, you might want to reread Worr's post. I think that the pertinent bits are here:

"Among this assemblage was a core of men, members of a scattering of squadrons, now re-equpped and reconsituted after their bloody nightmare over Java, who became collectively and respectfully know as 'Java men.' Merged together, veteran and neophyte began to form the group during their Amberly days.

...Getting an air group in war resembled a caterpillar slow, halting, with the feet at the back patiently waiting for those at the front to move forward. By 26 June 1943 the stateside contingent arrived at Amberly Field, just outside Brisbane, fresh from the 22nd Replacement Central Depot. Theree weeks later the remainder of the group withdrew from New Guinea and merged with the newcomers at Amberly."


It appears that the unit was made up of three parts : a core of men who had fought in the Java campaign (and possibly in the Phillippines prior to that?), a number of men from the replacement pools and a number of men serving in New Guinea. Unless we can find an exact breakdown showing that more than 50% of the unit was from the replacement pools, then I think that it should be constituted in Australia rather than San Diego.

[langley]

Andrew
If you do do CHS version 2.04 would you Please see if you could add 607 squadron RAF in June 1942. It should start out with the Hurricane IIb and move on to Spitfire Vbs in may 1943.

Thankyou

MJT

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: langley

Andrew
If you do do CHS version 2.04 would you Please see if you could add 607 squadron RAF in June 1942. It should start out with the Hurricane IIb and move on to Spitfire Vbs in may 1943.

Thankyou

MJT

Hi Mark,

Any other RAF squadron you think should be included?

Hmm, it seems that no Spits were used in the SEAC before the autumn of '43. Does anyone know anything about this?

From Rafweb ( http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn605-610.htm ):

"[No. 607 Squadron] moved to Manston in October remaining there until going to India in 1942...It joined No 166 Wing on 25 May 1942, still equipped with Hurricanes...These were replaced with Spitfires in September 1943, thereby becoming the first unit in SEAC to operate the type."

From the MoD ( http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/h607.html )

"In March 1942, the squadron left [for] India and joined No.166 Wing at Alipore on 25 May. At first engaged in escort and defensive duties, the squadron converted to Spitfires in September 1943"

From Wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire ):

"The first Spitfires in the Far East were two PR IV photo-reconaissance marks in October 1942. The threat of Japanese attacks on Northern Australia prompted the despatch of Spitfire Vb's in late 1942. No 1 Wing RAAF (No 54 Squadron RAF, 452 and 457 squadrons RAAF) was formed in Darwin, the first kill being achieved in February 1943, and saw constant action until September 1943. Spitfire VIII's were received in April 1944. In the Burma/India theatre the first Spitfire V's were not received until September 1943."

From Diggerhistory ( http://www.diggerhistory2.info/raaf/1944/chapter12.htm )

"Boxing Day, 1943...for the first time in India, that the Japs encountered the redoubtable British Spitfire."

[DuckofTindalos]

With four separate sources, I'd say the matter is settled...

[timtom]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

With four separate sources, I'd say the matter is settled...

Three sources, strictly. The text from the official RAF site and the of Rafweb.org is very similar, often identical. This would indicate a dependancy, either one on the other, or on a shared source.

Did I hear somewhere that Spits doesn't arrive until '43 in NikMod?

[DuckofTindalos]

Would be strange if they don't all emanate from a few primary sources...

[langley]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: langley

Andrew
If you do do CHS version 2.04 would you Please see if you could add 607 squadron RAF in June 1942. It should start out with the Hurricane IIb and move on to Spitfire Vbs in may 1943.

Thankyou

MJT

Hi Mark,

Any other RAF squadron you think should be included?

Hmm, it seems that no Spits were used in the SEAC before the autumn of '43. Does anyone know anything about this?

From Rafweb ( http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn605-610.htm ):

"[No. 607 Squadron] moved to Manston in October remaining there until going to India in 1942...It joined No 166 Wing on 25 May 1942, still equipped with Hurricanes...These were replaced with Spitfires in September 1943, thereby becoming the first unit in SEAC to operate the type."

From the MoD ( http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/h607.html )

"In March 1942, the squadron left [for] India and joined No.166 Wing at Alipore on 25 May. At first engaged in escort and defensive duties, the squadron converted to Spitfires in September 1943"

From Wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire ):

"The first Spitfires in the Far East were two PR IV photo-reconaissance marks in October 1942. The threat of Japanese attacks on Northern Australia prompted the despatch of Spitfire Vb's in late 1942. No 1 Wing RAAF (No 54 Squadron RAF, 452 and 457 squadrons RAAF) was formed in Darwin, the first kill being achieved in February 1943, and saw constant action until September 1943. Spitfire VIII's were received in April 1944. In the Burma/India theatre the first Spitfire V's were not received until September 1943."

From Diggerhistory ( http://www.diggerhistory2.info/raaf/1944/chapter12.htm )

"Boxing Day, 1943...for the first time in India, that the Japs encountered the redoubtable British Spitfire."

The only other Squadron I would add change a bit would be 488 Squadron!
At the moment this is an RAF unit which is OK apart from two factors

(1) With the exception of the CO the Squadron was made up New Zealand Pilots!

(2) In January 1942 this squadron began operations with Hurricanes!

Therefore is it not a good idea to make this squadron a RNZAF unit. How does this sound to you!

Mark.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: langley
Andrew
If you do do CHS version 2.04 would you Please see if you could add 607 squadron RAF in June 1942. It should start out with the Hurricane IIb and move on to Spitfire Vbs in may 1943.

I'll take a look.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: timtom
Hmm, it seems that no Spits were used in the SEAC before the autumn of '43. Does anyone know anything about this?

That may be the case, but since they were used by several RAAF squadrons in early 1943 I don't think we can change the availability date based on availability in India. Maybe to the start of 1943 instead of 6/42, though.

Andrew

[Wallymanowar]

ORIGINAL: langley

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: langley

Andrew
If you do do CHS version 2.04 would you Please see if you could add 607 squadron RAF in June 1942. It should start out with the Hurricane IIb and move on to Spitfire Vbs in may 1943.

Thankyou

MJT

Hi Mark,

Any other RAF squadron you think should be included?

Hmm, it seems that no Spits were used in the SEAC before the autumn of '43. Does anyone know anything about this?

From Rafweb ( http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn605-610.htm ):

"[No. 607 Squadron] moved to Manston in October remaining there until going to India in 1942...It joined No 166 Wing on 25 May 1942, still equipped with Hurricanes...These were replaced with Spitfires in September 1943, thereby becoming the first unit in SEAC to operate the type."

From the MoD ( http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/h607.html )

"In March 1942, the squadron left [for] India and joined No.166 Wing at Alipore on 25 May. At first engaged in escort and defensive duties, the squadron converted to Spitfires in September 1943"

From Wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire ):

"The first Spitfires in the Far East were two PR IV photo-reconaissance marks in October 1942. The threat of Japanese attacks on Northern Australia prompted the despatch of Spitfire Vb's in late 1942. No 1 Wing RAAF (No 54 Squadron RAF, 452 and 457 squadrons RAAF) was formed in Darwin, the first kill being achieved in February 1943, and saw constant action until September 1943. Spitfire VIII's were received in April 1944. In the Burma/India theatre the first Spitfire V's were not received until September 1943."

From Diggerhistory ( http://www.diggerhistory2.info/raaf/1944/chapter12.htm )

"Boxing Day, 1943...for the first time in India, that the Japs encountered the redoubtable British Spitfire."

The only other Squadron I would add change a bit would be 488 Squadron!
At the moment this is an RAF unit which is OK apart from two factors

(1) With the exception of the CO the Squadron was made up New Zealand Pilots!

(2) In January 1942 this squadron began operations with Hurricanes!

Therefore is it not a good idea to make this squadron a RNZAF unit. How does this sound to you!

Mark.

Having only looked at the stock units, I don't know if this has been corrected in CHS. There are mistakes in the stock units regarding RAF numbers. At the begining of the war, due to the rapid expansion of the RAF and the operation of Commonwealth units under RAF Command, the RAF adopted a numbering system allocating blocks of squadron numbers to various Allied squadrons (mostly Commonwealth but including other Allied nations) which operated under RAF Command. The numbering is as follows
1-299 RAF
300-309 Polish
310-315 Czech
316-318 Polish
320-322 Dutch
326-329 French
330-334 Norwegian
335-336 Greek
340-347 Free French
349-350 Belgian
351-352 Yugoslav
353-358 RAF (India)
400-445 Canada
450-467 Australia
485-490 New Zealand
500-504 Ex-AAF (Auxiliary Air Force - a reserve force for the RAF)
510-539 RAF (Special Duties)
540-544 RAF Photo-Reconnaissance (PR)
547-550 RAF
567-598 RAF
600-616 Ex-AAF
617-650 RAF
661-662 RAF Air Observation Post (AOP)
663 Polish
664-666 Canadian AOP
667-679 RAF
680-684 RAF (PR)
691-695 RAF
700-899 Reserved for Royal Navy (Fleet Air Arm)
900- Balloon

An example of how this worked is as follows - the RCAF (Royal Canadian Air Force) Squadron No. 1 was renumbered 401 Squadron (RCAF) on March 1st 1941 while in Britain. It had been operating as No. 1 Squadron RCAF in Britain since it arrived in August 1940. Canadian Squadrons which did not leave Canada retained their Canadian numbers. This is why you will see Canadian Squadrons operating for Canada Command which do not have a squadron number in the group of 400-445. For Trivia Buffs- at the end of the war Canada decided to retain the numbering system for her squadrons so all post-war Canadain squadrons were numbered between 400-445.

This numbering system was intended only to show foreign squadrons operating under RAF Command, it should be noted that there were still foreign manned squadrons of the RAF notably the American Eagle Squadrons (71 Squadron, 121 Squadron, and 133 Squadron), 222 Squadron which was a RAF Squadron commanded by Douglas Bader and manned by Canadians (most of whom resisted transfer to the RCAF).

488 Squadron was a RNZAF squadron attached to the RAF.

Two other examples of this type of mistake in the stock OOB:
413 Squadron and 413 Squadron RCAF which are the same squadron
436 Squadron and 436 Squadron RCAF which are the same squadron
Both 413 and 436 Squadrons were RCAF squadrons serving in RAF Commands so 413 Squadron and 436 Squadron should be removed.

Another thing to note is that there are none of the Royal Indian Air Force Squadrons represented in the stock OOB although I believe Sid has put them into his RHS mods.

A couple of really good sites to use if you wish to research the Canadian and Indian Air Forces during WW2 are:
RCAF: http://www.rcaf.com/index.php
RIAF: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... index.html

[timtom]

Mark,

The Dutch-crewed No. 18 & 120 Squadrons RAAF are already dual-nationality as it were. No. 320 Squadron RAF, another Dutch-crewed unit, is currently all-British. There might be others, I forget. The only reason I can think of for not making it NZ would be that it would then remain so throughout - as you probably know, historically the squadron was disbanded by the end of February '42 and later reformed for service in Europe. The NZ pilots went on to form No. 14 (?) Squadron RNZAF. So it might be argued that it stopped being NZ 2/42.

As for the Hurri's, that'll need a code-change - no RAF upgrades until 5/42. The only way to equip it with Hurri's before tis point would be to have it arrive on-map with Hurri's.

Either way, the decision isn't mine to make, but you'll find the CHS team perfectly open to a reasoned arguement.

Andrew,

This is what we're taking about:
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No. 457 Sqd RAAF, Spit Vb, 420618, Melbourne

No. 452 Sqd RAAF, Spit Vb, 430101, Brisbane

No. 79 Sqd RAAF, Spit Vb, 430426, Melbourne

No. 54 Sqd RAF, Spit Vb, 430801, Melbourne - Arrive 1/43?

In June 1942 the squadron moved south to Wellingore, but not for operations, but to prepare for a move overseas.The squadron was to be part of a fighter wing tasked with the defence of Northern Australia against Japanese attacks. However, it was January 1943, before the squadron was ready to begin operations and by July, the attacks had ceased but the wing was retained until September 1945

http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn051-55.htm

No. 548 Sqd RAF, Spit VIII, 440415, Melbourne

No. 549 Sqd RAF, Spit VIII, 440415, Melbourne - HQ currently SEAC

It is my understanding that the three RAF sqds were send to Oz specifically to defend same. Possibly the sqds should be assigned ANZAC?
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I can think of four solutions, other than sleeping dogs:

1) Include an Oz Spit

2) Cut the Spit Vb out of the SEAC RAF UP, effectively turning the Vb into the Oz Spit. The Spit VIII arrives 10/43.

3) Have the sqds in Q arrive overstrength. As long as the overstrength aircraft are assigned as ready and not damaged, they'll revert to reserve status. When the sqd moves, the reserve aircraft are left behind as a fragment, which can either be disbanded or left to chase after the mother unit. AFAIK, it doesn't greater supersize units, only units with lots of pilots. Obviously the excess aircraft could be assigned other units, but the total no. of aircraft will remain the same.

4) Lower the Spit Vb replacement rate.

[Andrew Brown]

Regarding the Spitfire Vb and possible changes:

ORIGINAL: timtom
I can think of four solutions, other than sleeping dogs:

1) Include an Oz Spit

Not at this late stage. Maybe for a future update (and this is the option I already think is the best in the long run).

2) Cut the Spit Vb out of the SEAC RAF UP, effectively turning the Vb into the Oz Spit. The Spit VIII arrives 10/43.

I thought of that as well, but it would depend on how many Vb vs VIII were used in SEAC. I don't know the answer to that question.

3) Have the sqds in Q arrive overstrength. As long as the overstrength aircraft are assigned as ready and not damaged, they'll revert to reserve status. When the sqd moves, the reserve aircraft are left behind as a fragment, which can either be disbanded or left to chase after the mother unit. AFAIK, it doesn't greater supersize units, only units with lots of pilots. Obviously the excess aircraft could be assigned other units, but the total no. of aircraft will remain the same.

An interesting idea but a bit too contrived for my tastes.

4) Lower the Spit Vb replacement rate.

My preference, instead of doing this, would be to move the Spit Vb arrival date from 6/42, which doesn't seem to be supported at all for any air force (as I already mentioned above), to 1/43. Not a perfect solution, but a step in the right direction, and simple to make.

Andrew

[langley]

The Spitfire Vc flew with 136,607 and 615 starting from July 1943 until early 1944 when they were replaced with the spitfire VIII. The Spitfire Vc also flew with 54,452 and 457 these units were operational by February 1943!

I would suggest therefore that makeing the Spitfire Mk Vc Replacement rate start on 1/43.

How does this sound to the rest of you!

Mark

[racndoc]

A lot of thorough and exacting research by a lot of individuals to come up with very historical Allied aircraft OOB and replacements.

Has there been any thought of programming historical Japanese aircraft OOB and replacements as an option for a future release of CHS?

[worr]

I wouldn't say "come up with".
 
It was only fine tuning, and two aircraft--thunderbotl and lightening--at that.
 
It certainly isn't exhaustive even of the allied OOB.