Ground Combat and Supply - TESTED!!!

[Sneer]

1 LTU for theater - kwantung/china /southern e.t.c 

[treespider]

Here is a COMPREHENSIVE report of a test I ran utilizing the 1945 Campaign.... i am comfortable with the results, I am just curious as to how the model is functioning...

The combat takes place in hex 48,30 a clear terrain hex.

The Japanese unit is the 16th Mixed Brigade (Leader ratings - Ldr -70, Insp -61, LS 76, Admin 54, Agg 64) which starts in Homan (1 hex E) I ordered this unit to march one hex due West to 48,30. The Japanese do not have a Corps HQ in range. North China HQ is in Peking (7 hexes away) commanded by Shimomura. (Command radius -6, Exp 70, mor 50, Ldr -67, Insp-67,LS73, Agg 71, Admin 57). Homan starts with approximately 6000 supply...more on this later...

In hex 48,30 is the Chinese 72nd corps (Leader ratings - LDR-39, Insp-45, LS 46, Admin 37, Agg-47) (Fort level 1). Adjacent to the chinese unit are several command and corps HQ's in Sian. Sian has approximately 9000 supply....more on this later.

Two turns elapse as the Japanese unit moves to hex 48,30. On the third day I issue orders for a Deliberate Attack.

On the turn the attack order is issued Homan has 6070 supply and requires 2985. More importantly IMO Homan has 1328 Support but requires 1655 and is in the Red for Support. This may or may not affect the outcome but does play a factor the day after the battle!

Sian on the other hand has 9017 Supplies but requires 3863. But more importantly Sian has 2013 Support and only requires 1799.

Here is the result of the Attack, I will post the relevant unit number after the attack to show its impact on the units:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 48,30

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 15949 troops, 183 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 331

Defending force 10730 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 343 - adjusted assault: 204

Allied max defense: 360 - adjusted defense: 228

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
286 casualties reported
Guns lost 10

Allied ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All well and good... now lets look at the units. The format will list the particular criteria followed by 4 numbers seperated by slashes. The third number will be the day the attack is launched and will be followed by two slashes and then the fourth day's numbers the day after the attack:

Japanese 16th Mixed Brigade
Exp - 45/45/45//46
Mor - 45/45/45//45
Disruption - 0/3/7//84 - They lost the fight afterall...
Fatigue - 14/15/26//38 - Interesting that 1 days march out of the base inflicted nearly as much fatigue as the fight (11v12)

Assault Strength - 315/312/302//270 - A result of the fatigue and disruption AS decreases...

Support - 433/433/433//433
Support Required - 541/540/540//504

Supplies On Hand - 974/984/978//870 - the second day supplies increased as the unit was still in Homan
Supplies Required - 974/974/973//1904 - A big jump now that the unit has fought in combat.
Homan -
Supplies Before Battle - 6070 / After battle 5971 ( Net loss of 99)
Sup Req Before -2985/ After Battle - 2984. (Still less than 1/2 of on hand)
But note the unit only has 870 supplies on hand. A direct result of the lack of support in Homan.

More interesting are the Chinese numbers. The important ones are as follows:

Disruption - 0/3/4/5 - They were not disupted at all
Fatigue - 14/15/17/16 - Battle sure is energizing as fatigue actually decreased!!!

Supplies On hand - 731/702/734//1315
Supplies Required - 731/731/731//1312 - What is interesting here is that the support at Sian seems to have paid dividends for the Chinese - as the Japanese are now in the red whereas the Chinese are fully supplied.

Assault Strength - 320/317/317//317


And Supply at Sian - 9017 before //8520 after
3863 req//3862 req.


So IMO we need to look not only at the hex in question but also nearby bases to include not only the supplies at those bases but the support at the bases as well...

Anyway just some more food for thought....Also to keep in mind...there were no A/C flights so DL may have been lower as well...

[Sneer]

attacker has req supply inceased next day to 2x previous one - in next 4-5 dyas it will drop till old value gradually 

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Supplies On Hand - 974/984/978//870 - the second day supplies increased as the unit was still in Homan
Supplies Required - 974/974/973//1904 - A big jump now that the unit has fought in combat.
Homan -
Supplies Before Battle - 6070 / After battle 5971 ( Net loss of 99)
Sup Req Before -2985/ After Battle - 2984. (Still less than 1/2 of on hand)
But note the unit only has 870 supplies on hand. A direct result of the lack of support in Homan.

Prior to launching the attack the Japanese unit requires 973 supplies and has 978...Then it launches the attack and afterward requires 1904 and has 870 on hand.

At the instant that the attack is resolved, does the program require the unit to have 1904 or 973?

1. If it is 1904, has the program already moved extra supply to the unit... then eats what it has moved plus some of the preexisting 978 leaving 870?

or

2. If it is 1904 does the program eat the 978, launches the attack then moves 870 to the unit after the attack?

or

3. Some other combination?

[Sneer]

i think only Matrix guts can answer

[treespider]

The same question applies the Chinese as well...at the instant of attack do they require 1312 or the lesser amount?

And I assume the amount of support at a nearby base is a definite factro in how much gets forwarded...the question is when does it get forwarded?

[Andy Mac]

Interesting test Treespider Sneer you are correct your IJA troops should be better squad by squad in 42 43 than Chinese ones.
 
My mistake on my test I thought it was morale that affected combat and fatigue the recovery of troops apparently its the other way round.
 
Sneer my factors were off so my maths is wrong but for your example I would also consider that not all the Chinese units were at no supply some may have had basic supply (i.e. be at 50% rather than 25%) certainly not all or most but perhaps some as a result of free supply.
 
I am guessing though.
 
 

[Andy Mac]

Treespider I think thats the right question but we cant answer it [:D]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Treespider I think thats the right question but we cant answer it [:D]

Ahh... but a question unasked can never be answer, whereas a question asked may be answered.

[Sneer]

chinase squad is 25% lighter than Japanese one - quite a significant factor
as far as how many chinase troops are low on supply
new supply is evenly distributed so i think all troops are filled to similar degree
it means that due to game mechanics there si little chance few trops are well with supply - but i did not see it

[Dino]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have units loaded with close to 2x required

In my big ground battle, most of my attacking LCUs constantly get loaded with close to 2x required supply, but they seem to be unable to cross the magic line...

As a side note, only units previously engaged in fighting are being oversupplied... New arrived units stay at basic level until their first engagement.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Dino

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have units loaded with close to 2x required

In my big ground battle, most of my attacking LCUs constantly get loaded with close to 2x required supply, but they seem to be unable to cross the magic line...

As a side note, only units previously engaged in fighting are being oversupplied... New arrived units stay at basic level until their first engagement.

Great, so they first have to get slaughtered and THEN get CLOSE to 2x supply. [8|]

[Sneer]

within next 2-3 weeks that you have to wait till you will be 100% ready again your supply will drop to old vales [;)]

[pauk]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

greetings,

perhaps you can explain why Jap assault value is 1/4 in the thread "ground combat again"?

If you need additional data, i would post them... could it be only because dice roll?

[Sneer]

pauk i'm starting to be neutral on this issue
russian will be unable to beat kwantung in 45
you will be out of touch in north OZ for allied
and i have no fear for my east india possesion
we will sit and wait where will be our wise heads
if they are happy with such model [8|]

I just found i have more to loose than win on continent

all praise devs all priase allied fanboys [&o][&o][&o]

i'll gladly keep this discussion later - about wrong faulty game mechanics
and inabilty to keep russian offensive supplied by weak transport network

[pauk]

[:D]

what makes me concern is that actually no one (and officials are pretty quiet about this question) really can explain ground combat/supply routine...

I do not pretend that i understand that (my esteemed opponent Andy is curious about that too)... but i want to learn how it is works...

what is more confusing we been told about 2x ground supply - but i do not recall that any of my units had so much supply....

even in the base with 200+ K supply my units barely have 20 supplies that it is required...

hopefully, we found the answer one day....

As for your example, it is pitty that Raver didn't participate in discussion...

[Sneer]

he is very busy - we go 1 turn /day and i feel he keeps game going only because he doesn't want to leave me without anything to do and it cost him his precious time

[treespider]

As I posted in the Ground Combat Again thread...

Here is my quick analysis of the situation after much typing and so forth...

1. Under 1.800.1 bases will only receive supply required.

6. "Push" of supply from a well supplied base to outlying bases now limited to need (human players only).
The previous code will push supply from a central base to outlying bases and units based on two factors:
a. Need - bases and units that are short on supply will receive supplies up to need (based on requested supply less amount already on hand)
b. Extra - additional supply will be dispersed to bases (but not units) if the sending base is "rich" in supply.
This push of extra supply results in difficulty in accumulating supplies at main bases. An example of this is supplies at Port Moresby being pushed to Buna when Port Moresby needs them and Buna does not. This enhancement will remove the "b. Extra" supply movement. Note: This enhancement is implemented for human players only. A side under computer control will use the original code.

2. Units will only receive what is required unless there is excess supply.

Now the tricky part...

3. Before combat... supply required by units is 1x after combat it is 2x.

4. To make full use of Maximum potential Assault value you need 2x supply.

5. However to get 2x supply you will need to launch an attack to raise your supply requirement to get supply to flow towards the combat.

6. If you have many interconnected bases the supply flow will be spread out across all of them ...whereas if you few interconnected bases the supply flow will be more direct.

Edit: I forgot to add 7. After excess supply has flowed toward the combat it will recede much like the tide...because there is no longer combat being fought, there is now an excess which will flow out to other bases...who "need" it.



Is it a problem....that is for you to decide.

[treespider]

Just ran some isolated tests on the effects of supply on Assault Values - Result 2x Supply has no perceivable impact - I'll posts examples shortly.

Test was set up by setting all ground, HQ and air units to delay 9999. I also eliminated all forms of supply from the map from resource, starting on map and daily allocations...only supply that would appear would be th 500 at Yunan for the burma road.


I then brought the Japanese 34th division back and allocated 4000 supply to the division...it requires 1500.

I then brought back the New 3rd china corps and gave it zero supply ---
Here is the first combat -

Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 506 - adjusted assault: 96

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 50

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
200 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
199 casualties reported
Guns lost 9



And then day 2

Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25278 troops, 251 guns, 6 vehicles, Assault Value = 471

Defending force 12883 troops, 58 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 317

Japanese max assault: 486 - adjusted assault: 100

Allied max defense: 302 - adjusted defense: 28

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
106 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Allied ground losses:
236 casualties reported
Guns lost 7


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!


Now the interesting tests...

[treespider]

The third test I ran I left everything as is but brought in a Japanese Corps HQ

Here is the combat run - everything else being equal except the addition of the HQ- Oh I forgot to mention for all of the tests i gave the combat units extra support so they were not in the red for support -

Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 390

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 42

Japanese assault odds: 9 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
211 casualties reported
Guns lost 6

Allied ground losses:
202 casualties reported
Guns lost 8


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!


What is shocking is the Japanese Assault Value quadrupled just from the addition of a corps HQ!!!!