Ground Combat and Supply - TESTED!!!

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

see my both screenshots - one was day before and one day after
AV dropped from 13150 to 9170 / tanks move AV higher than nominal AV

Ok but what is your opponents? His was 7061...what did the next days bombardment reveal?

Are you bombing the airfield? Are you bombing the city?

[Sneer]

city was bombed before siege
30/30 oil/res but HI can't produce when hex contested
airfield under bombs i don't let dmg go below 70% - killing support troops is slightly easier than 1st line inf - basicly during last month i concentrated on this
with 30+ inf units there is no such amount of planes that could inflict disruption to them
less and less supply hits so i think there is little/no free supply in base
no data from day after assault but i think i can keep records


bomber force had to be reduced - Raverdave starts sub war on my shipping lines

[pauk]

the only thing you could more do about it is dividing your army at Chungking into two groups, as Treespider suggested..

first with 300K men and second with 450K men... then attack city with smaller group and day after with bigger... other than that i don't know... it is very frustrating....
[:(]

[Sneer]

with such loss distribution i doubt chinase suffer any significant disruption
with even losses that could be an idea

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

with such loss distribution i doubt chinase suffer any significant disruption
with even losses that could be an idea

But as you have stated you don't know what their true losses are yet...see what their Assault Value is for each of the few days after the attack...and please report it.

[Sneer]

you have got it
i will send you / post results

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: DFalcon
I doubt this is a supply issue. I think the adjustment is due to deffensive fire. Units are suffering so many casualties that they are not making thier assault check. You will probably run into this when ever there are huge battles.

There is a problem in the logic of that. So the troops advance, attack, take casualties, then decide that since they've taken so many casualties they won't have advanced and attacked in the first place? The units shouldn't be taking casualties if they are not making the assault. How can it get shot up if its not advancing on and attacking the enemy?

It could be that you are right, DFalcon, in that is how the program is structured. But if so then it is IMHO a serious design f-up.

(One should be able to determine if this is what is happening from watching the combat animation. Any unit making a Deliberate or Shock Attack also does a preliminary "bombardment". If this is occuring then the attacker will see units he ordered to attack making the pre-defensive fire bombardment but then not making the Deliberate/Shock attack afterwards.)

[DFalcon]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

There is a problem in the logic of that. So the troops advance, attack, take casualties, then decide that since they've taken so many casualties they won't have advanced and attacked in the first place? The units shouldn't be taking casualties if they are not making the assault. How can it get shot up if its not advancing on and attacking the enemy?

Or they advance, take heavy fire and can not press the attack due to casualties. It is not an unusual game mechanic to have a fire phase that can disrupt or stop a close assault phase.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

LTUs are a fine idea. They were a good idea 18 months ago too.[;)]

I want to make something else clear. I grant it is the right of all players to post on the forums but feel a great deal of harm was done by players who posted without understanding. Changes were introduced where no change was really required if the players understood how to actually use the system. WITP has been altered in many ways never intended to suit players who were getting it wrong to start with and now WITP does not have a standard set of results but several produced by different styles and levels of understanding.

Just curious but, when's the last time the manual was updated? If we are really having problems in not understanding the combat system and other components of this game then perhaps we could request that the manual be updated to current version with specific examples of combat systems, supply systems, and Japan's production capabilities.

I'd be most happy to assist in the creation of a 2nd edition manual. We could beta test the manual in the forums to insure clarity of content and that examples given are easily understood.

Also - just my 2 cents but - this is the best WWII strategy game I've seen regarding this theatre of war. I really do enjoy playing the game and reading the forums. And like many others playing this game, I should probably invest a little more of my time in reading the manual [:)]

[dtravel]

The manual was never accurate and complete, even before the first patch.  That "lack of understanding" that Mogami is complaining about is the direct, intended result of Grigsby's game design philosophy and the incomplete and misleading nature of the documentation.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: DFalcon

ORIGINAL: dtravel

There is a problem in the logic of that. So the troops advance, attack, take casualties, then decide that since they've taken so many casualties they won't have advanced and attacked in the first place? The units shouldn't be taking casualties if they are not making the assault. How can it get shot up if its not advancing on and attacking the enemy?

Or they advance, take heavy fire and can not press the attack due to casualties. It is not an unusual game mechanic to have a fire phase that can disrupt or stop a close assault phase.

I could see that in a platoon or company scale engagement, but entire divisions? The Deliberate and Shock attacks in WiTP are NOT "close assault phases". The defensive fire that you are saying stops entire divisions in their tracks is occuring after the attacker has already begun shooting at the defenders.

But to sidestep that discussion before it degenerates, let me ask this. Have you ever seen attacker units that were ordered by the player to conduct a Deliberate or Shock attack go thru the first attacker "bombardment" phase, get shot at by the defenders (seen its AV drop in the animation) and then NOT have it make the main attack? I never have.

[tsimmonds]

Have you ever seen attacker units that were ordered by the player to conduct a Deliberate or Shock attack go thru the first attacker "bombardment" phase, get shot at by the defenders (seen its AV drop in the animation) and then NOT have it make the main attack? I never have.

Not entire units (that I can tell anyway, but how would you know?), but squads that are disabled during the fire phase do not participate in the assault phase.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Have you ever seen attacker units that were ordered by the player to conduct a Deliberate or Shock attack go thru the first attacker "bombardment" phase, get shot at by the defenders (seen its AV drop in the animation) and then NOT have it make the main attack? I never have.

Not entire units (that I can tell anyway, but how would you know?), but squads that are disabled during the fire phase do not participate in the assault phase.

I have no problem with individual squads that get disabled not attacking. But DFalcon's suggested reason why Assault Values are dropping so much is that entire units will not attack because of casualties taken during the fire phase. I'm trying to rule that out.

[tsimmonds]

This would be useful information. However, as the actual assault does not show on the screen, unit by unit, the way the preceeding fire combat does, I don't believe there is any way for us to know this, short of someone poking around in the code.

[Sneer]

how the hell units with no/low  supply and without any single gun/mortar can supress attacking units enough to force them to break ?????

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

This would be useful information. However, as the actual assault does not show on the screen, unit by unit, the way the preceeding fire combat does, I don't believe there is any way for us to know this, short of someone poking around in the code.

I'd settle for seeing any attacking units that don't have the big jump in the animation's displayed AV. Those happen one by one after the defensive fire with the subtitle's saying "Unit X makes Deliberate Attack" or somesuch.