Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

[Froonp]

I found another map of Norway you may use to draw the coast lines further north. It's embedded into this message. Here is the link if you want the original map:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/norway_pol96.jpg

Got them too
I found them slightly complicated to use for drawing coastlines, but if you think that the coastlines are ok on these, I'll use them to redo the part between Trondheim & Narvik. I was not happy at all of them in my first drawing of post #1.

[Froonp]

Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

Does this mean that you are son of Hokan ?
Does Hokan means something in Scandinavian (Swedish ? Norwegian ?) Does this mean something like Smith, Baker, etc...
I always thought that Andersen, Chritiansen meant "Son of", is this true ?

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

Does this mean that you are son of Hokan ?
Does Hokan means something in Scandinavian (Swedish ? Norwegian ?) Does this mean something like Smith, Baker, etc...
I always thought that Andersen, Chritiansen meant "Son of", is this true ?

Hokan with Swedish spelling would be Håkan probably. Hokanson is indeed "Son of Hokan". Hokansen is the same but with a Danish touch.
Håkan(modern) is an old nordic name (Hakon, Hakun) probably meaning 'den högättade' - 'noble one'. First Swedish written example of the name is from a runestone dated circa 1000 ad.
You can find strange facts online. [:)]

[Toed]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I also wonder if the lake in northern Sweden (just south of the resources) is maybe too big. Lake Hornavan?

Considering the riverlines I would name the 5 northenmost lakes in Sweden on the current map this. From north to south - Torneträsk, Stora Lulevatten, Hornavan, Storuman and Storsjön.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
[Got them too
I found them slightly complicated to use for drawing coastlines, but if you think that the coastlines are ok on these, I'll use them to redo the part between Trondheim & Narvik. I was not happy at all of them in my first drawing of post #1.

I think you can use this map as a basis and make some simplifications where you feel it's needed. Meaning it's not necessary to draw every little island or every little curve in the coast line to indicate a very small fjord, peninsula or whatever. Use the map and make simplifications where needed. For example the coast line outside the Trondheimsfjord doesn't need to show all those small curves. It's better to draw a pretty strait line going north-eastwards.

[Ullern]

I am not completly satisified by dismissing the Hjälmaren isue.

Maps always helps. So down below I have made a map where I just try to map real world onto the WIF map without caring for the limitation of hex sides. (Obviously what I did was
pink : lakes
orange : real border
black : railway

I guess this map can be used both to dimsiss the argument, but can also be used to find a solution.

[Ullern]

With the above I'll vote Yes to adding Hjälmaren NW on hex 39,41.

On the northern Sweden lake issue I am just gonna add that up there many of the lakes are really long and thin like Femunden:
The lake north of the Kiruna line I measure to 120 km (it's really really thin the eastern 60 km)
The lake south of Kiruna I measure to 150 km
The one further south of that I measure to 110 km.

[trees trees]

[although my last name is Finnish and means "Lakeson" in English I know far too little about Scandinavian geography to even vote on these, but an interesting thread nonetheless.]

[[anyone remember GDW maps in the rpg 'Traveller' that covered polar areas with a unique system of triangular prongs extending towards the pole...east-west movement was from prong to prong, with the prongs narrowing down until the actual North or South Pole hex of a planet being a hex of six slices from the six prongs. very good way to handle two-dimensional projections with a hex system, just wondering if any other game ever used this?]]

[Ullern]

About that projection thing: If the Sweden was the center of the WIF universere then Oslo should have been on hex NW of where it is. And that whould have consequences for how rest of Norway is drawn. But in WIF, distances like Norway-UK are more important than Swedish geography. And that leaves Oslo where it is.

Now with Oslo is where it is. It's neccesary that Norway have those two hexes east and south east to allow those operations that hypoteticly could take place there.
_ As a Norwegian I can state that I have no imidiate plans for giving up the ooccupied teritories!

[trees trees]

Although I someday hope to see northern Scandinavian geography up-close I still can't vote on most of these....

but I noticed a few points:

Will the coastline around Narvik be drawn to make the Narvik hex invadable? I can't recall if the Germans were able to land directly near the town or had to pick a beach some kilometers away?

I do recall that the Germans used another port to base at various times the Scharnhorst and the Tirpitz a bit farther north than Narvik, Alta-Fjord I think? So adding one here would make plenty of historical sense.

But to simulate the way the campaign against Murmansk was waged would require a rules change. In the war the Germans used sea-supply convoys to bring supplies from northern Norway to the northern tip of Finnish territory. In WiF this will never happen as if you want to attack Murmansk by land you have to use an HQ which can then draw supply from the Finnish road. And you could never supply the northern Norwegian ports except via sea in the Arctic ocean, which can't happen in WiF as you can't trace a supply line back to Germany across sea areas twice, and the Allies would never let you use the North Sea. So adding ports to north Norway won't really change anything in the game.

[Froonp]

Here's what I came up with for the coastlines between Trondheim & Narvik.
I'm not as enthusastic here as for the Bergen-Kristiansand portion, but this is good enough. I should have chanded some all sea hexsides and added a land hex for it to be better, but I'm ok as like this too.
The small ports without names are supposedly Bodo and Tromso.

Also, I made the Swedish lakes thinner, to see what they looked like (and erased the underlying lake hexside).
In my opinion, even if they are that thin in reality, they should be painted less thin, as I think they not enough outstanding on the map, compared to the Finnish lakes (who would need thinning too if the Swedish lakes' thinning was to be kept).

[Froonp]

Will the coastline around Narvik be drawn to make the Narvik hex invadable? I can't recall if the Germans were able to land directly near the town or had to pick a beach some kilometers away?

The way the coastlines are drawn doesn't matter.
What matter is if the hex has an all sea hexside or not.
In the case of Bergen, it has 5 All sea hexes (see attached picture where all sea hexsides have been painted in light blue on the right picture), so it is invadable.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

Does this mean that you are son of Hokan ?
Does Hokan means something in Scandinavian (Swedish ? Norwegian ?) Does this mean something like Smith, Baker, etc...
I always thought that Andersen, Chritiansen meant "Son of", is this true ?

Literally it means "son of" as does "ovitch" and "ovna" in Russian (for men and women respectively). However both my father and his father were named Oscar. I do not know when (or indeed, even if) the naming custom changed.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Froonp
[Got them too
I found them slightly complicated to use for drawing coastlines, but if you think that the coastlines are ok on these, I'll use them to redo the part between Trondheim & Narvik. I was not happy at all of them in my first drawing of post #1.

I think you can use this map as a basis and make some simplifications where you feel it's needed. Meaning it's not necessary to draw every little island or every little curve in the coast line to indicate a very small fjord, peninsula or whatever. Use the map and make simplifications where needed. For example the coast line outside the Trondheimsfjord doesn't need to show all those small curves. It's better to draw a pretty strait line going north-eastwards.

Mathematically, all coastlines are infinitely long.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: ullern
I am not completly satisified by dismissing the Hjälmaren isue.

Maps always helps. So down below I have made a map where I just try to map real world onto the WIF map without caring for the limitation of hex sides. (Obviously what I did was
pink : lakes
orange : real border
black : railway

I guess this map can be used both to dimsiss the argument, but can also be used to find a solution.

If agreement can be reached that this map is an accurate depiction, then I agree with adding the lake hexside for Hjälmaren NW on hex 39,41 (as suggested by Ullern). Putting in this new lake hexside seems to force the rail line to move south as shown in black and removal of the previous rail line that ran just north of the lakes.

This map also makes me change my vote from Yes to No for extending the south eastern lake (one of the V names) an extra hexside. WIF FE seems to have that right - at least according to this map.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Will the coastline around Narvik be drawn to make the Narvik hex invadable? I can't recall if the Germans were able to land directly near the town or had to pick a beach some kilometers away?

The way the coastlines are drawn doesn't matter.
What matter is if the hex has an all sea hexside or not.
In the case of Bergen, it has 5 All sea hexes (see attached picture where all sea hexsides have been painted in light blue on the right picture), so it is invadable.

And to answer your question directly, Narvik, as drawn, does have an all-sea hexside and is invadable.

[Froonp]

And to answer your question directly, Narvik, as drawn, does have an all-sea hexside and is invadable.

Yes, sorry, I forgot the question [:D].

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here's what I came up with for the coastlines between Trondheim & Narvik.
I'm not as enthusastic here as for the Bergen-Kristiansand portion, but this is good enough. I should have chanded some all sea hexsides and added a land hex for it to be better, but I'm ok as like this too.
The small ports without names are supposedly Bodo and Tromso.

Also, I made the Swedish lakes thinner, to see what they looked like (and erased the underlying lake hexside).
In my opinion, even if they are that thin in reality, they should be painted less thin, as I think they not enough outstanding on the map, compared to the Finnish lakes (who would need thinning too if the Swedish lakes' thinning was to be kept).

I think the coast lines between Trondheim and Narvik look good now and definetely good enough for MWIF. The only thing I would comment is that Tromsø is probably placed in the wrong hex. The big island NW of where you placed Tromsø is the Senja island. And Tromsø is east of Senja island.

I think maybe it's more correct to place Tromsø in the hex 1xNE of where you placed Tromsø. I think Tromsø should be located on the vertical coast line of the mainland near the strait arrow to the island to the NW. It means that Tromsø is located a little bit to the left of the center of the hex.

The distances between Bodø and Narvik and Tromsø and Narvik are similar (slightly longer between Bodø and Narvik). So I think 4 hexes between Bodø and Narvik and 3 hexes between Narvik and Tromsø is pretty correct. Now it's only 2 hexes between Narvik and Tromsø.

I guess one reason for this is that the coast line north of Narvik except the newly drawn Lofoten and Vesterålen may have some minor mistakes. But it's not very big mistakes meaning they HAVE TO be redrawn.

I think the map of Norway is now starting to look really pretty. The lakes in northern Sweden look very nice now too. So keep up the great work Froonp. [:)] I feel we are getting closer and closer to finalizing the Scandinavian map area and can move on to another map area.

[Froonp]

Nils, is this as you wanted ?
As a note, the lake you talk about south of Stockholm is the sea in WiF FE. The hexside south of Stockholm are all sea hexsides, not lake hexsides.

I personaly do not like it, because this "lake" south of Stockholm has to be stretch far to the west to show it as it is in reality relatively to Hjälmaren.
This makes the area quite messing, for little realism added.
This is what I call a step too far.
WiFzening the Hjälmaren as part of the "Lake" south of Stockholm is better for me.

I also redrew Vänern and Vättern more like you drew them.

Edit : Deleted the picture since I put it in post #141.

[Froonp]

Here is what the map show in the area.
Edit : Deleted the picture since I put it in post #141.