Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

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treespider
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

As soon as you explain to me how IRL Japan produced some 140,000+ aircraft I'll listen to RL discussions about allied production.

The US alone should be out producing Japan by a factor of 3-1 by 1944. I just gave you the actual Allied production numbers for all allied planes produced in the game, and Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production. Now take into account that about 3/4ths of allied production is obsolete for most of the game (or in Russia's case never gets used) and you have a disparity in production that is pure fantasy.

I don't care if we have to give the US 500,000 fantasy aircraft made up out of thin air. If Japan gets to use fantasy aircraft the allies should get them as well.

Jim

Nowhere in my post did I state that Japan's figures were correct or incorrect.
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: treespider
Nowhere in my post did I state that Japan's figures were correct or incorrect.

No problem, but I wish people would stop counting the night fighter versions in game production as part of F6F production. They can't be used to replenish carrier losses and there are far to few groups that use them to ever be able to take advantage of that pools large number of air frames in any real way.

I should add that even though my numbers were slightly flawed, 20% of 12,275 is 2,455 so the premiss of my original point still applies it just goes up to 30% instead of 20% when taking into account your revised numbers. 144 air frames times 26 months is 3,744, still far fewer than they should get.

Jim
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Andy Mac »

Treespider I think we are toalking the same basic numbers but by my calcualtion the allies are due c 8900 top line F6F DAY Fighters during the war and the get c 4200 so roughtly 40 - 50% part of it is as you rightly point out because the Nightfighter variant is too highly represented
ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Even in PDU's those Noightfighter variants are useless to the allies as they are NF's and cannot be upgraded to from normal sqns

The only Hellcat I am interested in is the day fighter variant.

And I disagree with your numbers Tabpub as for me its the Day fighter variant thats important

F6F-3 4,402 First production variant.
Subvariants
included:

- 18 conversions to F6F-3E evaluation night fighters.
- 149 (some sources say 205) F6F-3N night fighters.
- Unknown number of F6F-3P reconnaissance conversions.
- 1 temporarily converted to XF6F-2 with turbocharged
R-2800-21. Some sources give 4,403 F6F-3s,
apparently due to "double counting" this machine.

252 fighters were provided to the British FAA as the
Hellcat I.

so c 3900 day fighter variants for the USN alone

F6F-5 7,870 Second production variant (some sources give 7,868).
Subvariants included:

- 1,434 (some sources say 1,529) F6F-5N night fighters.
- Several hundred F6F-5P reconnaissance conversions.
- Several hundred F6F-5K drone conversions.
- A number of F6F-5D drone controller conversions.
- Two converted to XF6F-6 with R-2800-18W and
four-bladed propeller.

930 of total F6F-5 production was supplied to the
British FAA as the "Hellcat II". Most were
"Hellcat F.II" fighters but 70 (some sources give 80
or 85 or 95) were F6F-5N night fighters and designated
"Hellcat NF.II". Some were converted to a
reconnaissance configuration and designated "Hellcat
PR.II" (unarmed) or "Hellcat FR.II" (armed).

So about 5,000 DAY Fighter versions of the Hellcat forthe USN

Over a 24 month production run the allies should be recieving about 8900 day fighter variants for the USN alone or about 340 per month

Now allowing for training, drones, wastage etc a rate of c 300 per month seems reasonable not 144 as we have now. For my game this would be very significant as I would not have pulled off the Marianas with that kind of strength in depth

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Andy Mac »

The nightfighter variant is getting c 1700 more at the expense of the day pool and day production is down by c 3000 now allowing some for training and other theatres although most carriers in USN in Europe were CVE's with Wildcats then I think the rate should be 300 per month not 144 for the critical day fighter variant and reduce the nightfighter to c 50 or 60 per month.

I think it is unfair to just lump the day and nightfighter variants together in that way.

Andy
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by ChezDaJez »

The US alone should be out producing Japan by a factor of 3-1 by 1944. I just gave you the actual Allied production numbers for all allied planes produced in the game, and Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production. Now take into account that about 3/4ths of allied production is obsolete for most of the game (or in Russia's case never gets used) and you have a disparity in production that is pure fantasy.

More like an 8:1 Us/Japan production ratio.

In regards to "historical" Japanese production, if we were to sharply limit Japanese production to only what was historical, we would be making the same mistakes the Japanese made IRL. I, for one, want a chance to avoid those mistakes if I can. So I want the ability to concentrate production in key areas. At least allow the increase of factory capabilities to 1944 levels and let imports decide the amount of prodcution possible.

I think the way to look at Japanese production for game purposes is to determine what was possible, not what was actually accomplished IRL. We have to assume a couple of what ifs for the moment. What if the US did not practise total submarine warfare? (Many allied players do not). What if the home islands were not bombed into rubble? (Most games don't get that far) What if the Japanese were able to bring in all the materials they needed? What would the capablity be then?

See, I believe that late war Japanese production is ultimately in the hands of the allied player. The Japanese player can expand all he wants but if he is not getting the oil and resources to the home islands to make the HI he needs, he can't produce anything and that expansion will become useless and will cost plenty of resources that he is going to need just to keep supplies flowing... if he can.

By the same token, US production in late 43 and early 44 was pretty close to maxxed out due to skilled manpower shortages. That is not to say they didn't have the resources or the room to expand, it is to say that manpower became the limiting factor. Now in mid-late 44, the US began drastic cutbacks in shipbuilding followed by other war materials. The longer it took to build something, the more likely it was going to be cut.

I do believe that the Allied player does get the short end of the stick on some production items such as with the Hellcat. I don't know how many actually served in the Pacifc but from the posts I've seen, it should be considerably more. I believe that something on the order of 20% of Hellcats were kept stateside for training, testing and research purposes. That still leaves quite a few that should available to the allied player. I am sure that there are other aircraft issues as well.

As far as pilot pools go, I believe that it should be tied to the loss rate and to the amount of supply found in the home islands. IRL, the Japanese greatly expanded their pilot training programs in 1943. This isn't reflected in the game. Tying it to supply or resources would have one good game effect. It would force Japanese players to keep more supply in the home islands. Basically whatever supply remained after all production and unit costs were taken into account, then whatever remained would decide the number of trained pilots and their quallity.

While we're on the subject. The one thing that pilot traing or production does not reflect in the game is the variability of production and training, especially in regards to Japan. The allied player also has a clear advantage in production because his production is not required to ramp up over a period of time. I hardly doubt that the US produced 144 Hellcats a month the moment they were released for production. The US player also doesn't have to worry about the conversion of factories producing obsolete aircraft to newer models. Its all invisible to the allied player.

My main point is that there are production issues on both sides of the fence and that it would be irresponsible to advocate fixing only one side while ignoring the other.

Chez
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
if we were to sharply limit Japanese production to only what was historical, we would be making the same mistakes the Japanese made IRL. I, for one, want a chance to avoid those mistakes if I can.


By the same token, US production in late 43 and early 44 was pretty close to maxxed out due to skilled manpower shortages.

Classic, on the one hand you want a flexible fantasy based production system for Japan that is freely flexible for Japanese players to tweak as they see fit and on the other hand you state the US was maxxed out so no extra stuff for them.

If Japan gets to use non-historic aircraft then the US should get them as well.

But let’s first start by giving the US at least what it had to begin with and then limit Japan to realistic levels as well. Then we can hold a discussion about what might have been.

Right now we have a pure fantasy game that doesn't even remotely reflect history other than using names of historical areas of conflict.

Jim
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Japan out produces the US by over 10,000 planes and almost equals total allied production.

Do you base this on actual available numbers in a game or on the listed current build rates?

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by RETIRED »

"By the same token, US production in late 43 and early 44 was pretty close to maxxed out due to skilled manpower shortages. That is not to say they didn't have the resources or the room to expand, it is to say that manpower became the limiting factor. Now in mid-late 44, the US began drastic cutbacks in shipbuilding followed by other war materials. The longer it took to build something, the more likely it was going to be cut."
 
Sorry Chez..., but this one you got wrong.  US Production wasn't nearly as dependent on "skilled labor" as that of the Axis because of the Assemply Line and Mass Production Practices, and while labor allocation was a problem from time to time it was more a matter of workers seeking the best paying jobs.  US Ship Production Orders started to scale back in 1944 simply because it was obvious that what had already been scheduled was going to be sufficient to win the war.  DE orders were cancelled right, left. and center in the 2nd half of 1943 when the U-Boat Menace was seen to be under control.  B-29's were still ramping up, and 1944 A/C production was enormous (by weight it exceeded that of ALL the other powers - Axis and Allied - that year).

US Industrial effeciency was a well established fact.  In 1938,  the Depression was still running it's course in America and idling hundreds of factories and workers.  Both Germany and Japan had pretty much pulled themselves out of it with the process of ramping up for War.  Yet 52,000,000 US workers produced 32.2% of all the World's Manufactured Goods.  36,200,000 German workers managed only 10.7%, while 34,100,000 Japanese workers managed a pitifull 3.5%.  Japan never managed to improve that 1:10 production ratio during the entire war.  US "Production per man-hour" rose steadily throught the war, far exceeding Japan's small gains.  The Japanese put great emphasis on increasing A/C Production in 1944, cutting back on many other things to do so.  But by weight, they were still just making 10% of US Production - 65,500.000lbs of Japanese aircraft to 650,6000,000lbs of American ones. All the "Fighting Spirit" in the world isn't going to make up for that kind of descrepancy.  And the US had the trained pilots and aircrews to man all those planes - this was one area you are correct in.  In 1943, the US had trained more than 15 times as many pilots, aircrew, and ground service personel as Japan had (and trained them to higher levels).  When losses were less than expected, pilot training in 1944 was cut in half (to just over 40,000 a year - and the educational, physical, and training levels were increased - at a time when they were being slashed to the bone by other participants).  The US Army was very greatfull to get the sudden huge influx of high quality manpower that this cut in Air Corps demands gave them.  Though the recruits who thought they had signed up to fly were dissapointed to be handed a rifle instead.
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
Do you base this on actual available numbers in a game or on the listed current build rates?

I based it on Admiral Laurent's great analysis above of Japanese production figures. I actually toned down possible production by 15k aircraft in 42 and 25k in 45 to make up for the expansion period and allied destruction of industry in 45.

Potentially (given just historical gains) Japan could possibly build 40k in 42, 45k in 43 and 44 and 35k in 45 for a total of 165,000 airframes if the allies don't do anything to prevent it.

It would be great if some Japanese players would give total air frame figures for their games in 1943 and 1944 so we can verify if Admiral Laurent’s figures actually play out in game. I suspect they do since its simple math, not a lot to it really.

Jim
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Nikademus »

Ok. Just wanted clarification.

Every game save i've been sent thus far have shown indications that Japan's economy wasn't building the projected numbers due to shortages of resource/oi and/or Heavy Industry. Similar indications were pointed out to me by another observer in PzB's game as well.

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by treespider »

Let's revisit Admiral Laurents analysis...I am not suggesting he is wrong just providing it in a different light

Per the manual AC costs are

Single Engine plane - 1E (18 HI points) + 1 AC (18 HI points) = 36 HI points
Twin Engine plane - 2E (36 HI points) + 1 AC (36 HI points) = 72 HI Points
4E Plane - 4E (72 points) + 1 AC (72 HI points) = 144 HI Points

Using Admiral laurents calculated figure of 5200 HI ponits to continue the analysis:

5200 HI Points = 144 single engine AC/day= 52560 1E AC/year

If we devote two thirds of the HI to 1E AC we can achieve:
96 1E AC/day = 3456 HI
24 2E AC/day = 1728 HI

Historically in 1943 Japan produced

7147 fighters or c. 20/day
4189 bombers or c. 11/day
2070 reconnaisance or c. 6/day

using round number lets say

9200 1E A/C
4200 2E A/C

working backwards this equates to

9200x36HI=331200 HI points on 1E A/C = c.907 HI points on 1E AC/day
4200x72 HI = 302400 HI points on 2E A/C = c. 828 HI points on 2E AC/ day

in 1944

13,811 fighters or c 38 /day
5,100 bombers or c. 14/day
2147 reconn or c. 6 /day

using round numbers lets say

16,000 1E A/C x 36 HI = 576000 HI Points on 1E AC/year = 1578 HI points on 1E AC/day
5,000 2E AC x 72 HI = 367200 HI points on 2E AC/year = 1006 Hi Points on 2E AC/day





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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by ChezDaJez »

But let’s first start by giving the US at least what it had to begin with and then limit Japan to realistic levels as well. Then we can hold a discussion about what might have been.

Isn't that basically what I said? I do believe I said that the allies had issues with aircraft levels that need to be addressed but that Japan should be able to at least build to 1944 levels and with enough resources and oil reaching the home islands she could have produced much more. She had plenty of excess capacity. It was the interdiction of imports that limited her production, not an inability to expand.
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by ChezDaJez »

Sorry Chez..., but this one you got wrong. US Production wasn't nearly as dependent on "skilled labor" as that of the Axis because of the Assemply Line and Mass Production Practices, and while labor allocation was a problem from time to time it was more a matter of workers seeking the best paying jobs. US Ship Production Orders started to scale back in 1944 simply because it was obvious that what had already been scheduled was going to be sufficient to win the war. DE orders were cancelled right, left. and center in the 2nd half of 1943 when the U-Boat Menace was seen to be under control. B-29's were still ramping up, and 1944 A/C production was enormous (by weight it exceeded that of ALL the other powers - Axis and Allied - that year).

I think you might have misunderstood part of what I said concerning production and cutbacks. I probably didn't make it clear enough in my post.

What I was trying to say was that the expansion of US industry had pretty much reached their maximum levels by late 43 and early 44. I think they would have found it much harder to expand anywhere near the rate they did in 41 and 42 because the manpower pool just wasn't there to support another great round of expansion. Pretty much everyone was either in the military, already in the defense workforce or engaged in some other vital occupation such as agriculture and others. The available manpower pool wasn't empty but it was limited.

I recognize that the cutbacks had nothing to do with any perceived shortages in material or personnel. Just the opposite was true. The cutbacks came about because they couldn't use any more of that particular material or weapon. You are correct that B-29 production continued to ramp up but many other aircraft types were discontinued and some assembly lines closed.

Chez
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by ChezDaJez »

It would be great if some Japanese players would give total air frame figures for their games in 1943 and 1944 so we can verify if Admiral Laurent’s figures actually play out in game. I suspect they do since its simple math, not a lot to it really.

I don't have any beyond January 43 but I think it will be an eye opener for you AFBs that think Japan can expand to whatever levels it wants. As I said before Japan's expansion depends solely upon the condition of the SRA oil fields and resources at the time of capture or the allied attempts to interdict its movement.

Take note all you Sir Robins! In this particular game (Scenario 15, PDU On), my opponent fought tooth and nail for every major oil and resource center. ALL were captured at less than 25% of capacity. Palembang had 13 operational oil points and Balikpapan had 81 of 600 resources when captured. Yeah, it cost him a lot of troops and aircraft but he did a number on me. He has pretty much ensured an early end to the game, especially now that his offensive has recaptured the Celebes and Timor. I don't have the aircraft to stop him. Most of my squadrons are at less than 75% strength and average around 50 experience. The only bright spot is that I have sunk 6 Cvs and 6 BBs.

Note the oil points on the chart below. Now note the HI available. I'm screwed. As it is I can't even finish expanding Kawasaki engine production. You will note that I have not touched naval, merchant or repair yards, I have not accelerated any ship production, I have not increased research. I haven't touched anything with the exception of engine and aircraft factories.

Here is my monthly fighter production:
A6M3: 83
A6M3a: 150
Ki-43: 28
Ki-44: 124
Ki-61: 260

I am producing 1503 engines and 1005 aircraft per month.

Chez



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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by ChezDaJez »

Here is a shot of my aircraft pools. I simply do not have the HI produce enough aircraft meet current production requirements, let alone expand. The production stats you see here are theoretical, not actual. Actual aircraft production is far less.

Chez

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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by ChezDaJez »

This screen shot shows my "best" fighter squadrons. Note only one is above 70. Also note that I do not have enough aircraft to fill them out completely. (This particular shot was taken before I assigned what few replacements I had).

Chez




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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by ctangus »

I'd like to see more samples. How many 43 & later games are like Chez's and how many are like PzB's?

I play allies only (at least so far), but here's a contrary view. I like the fact that the Japanese have a dynamic production model. Japan's primary motive for the war was economic afterall. If the Japanese do better in the early game IRL, why shouldn't they have benefits? Conversely, as in Chez's game, if the allies do a good job fighting for the SRA Japan's situation should be more dire.

I also like the added dimension the dynamic production gives to the game - forcing the allied player (if he's smart) to interdict Japan's SLOCs, keep attrition warfare going as much as possible, etc.

Now if 80-90% of all games wind up with Japan far outproducing historical numbers, I'd agree Japan had the ability to produce too many airframes. I doubt we'd see that, though that's only my impression.

Fortunately, for those who don't like it, the game can be played with production off.

P.S. Andy Mac does have a valid point on F6F numbers. (Yes, Andy, we've heard you. [;)])
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Sneer »

Jim

40k in 42 ???[X(][X(][X(]- most players is happy seing 1k per month for total of 12k in year - you need to build these factories in conditions where you are permanently short on supplies
it shows ignorancy on japenase side play
wake up
stop wet dreaming
stoping armament / naval/ vehicles for the whole war - no reinforcement - only planes
it is not even weird
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Sneer »

ok my game is certainly in upper part of WITP universe - i had better than historical results and my SRA resources were not badly damaged - with china eliminated and lazy allied player - not many reasons to burn precious supplies

i had 0.9-1.1k planes produced in 42 /monthly/
I have 1.1-1,7k production estimated for 43 /monthly/ - in August i have 1.4 k
notice that to preserve HI points 20-25% of this value is not working all the time
in 44 george and frank will join so at least 600-700 planes/month from them
i would say that my forecast for 44 are 1.7 -2.8k per month / under the assumption i will be able to defend against offensive from darwin area /
average values for
42 12-13k planes built
43 16-18k planes built
44 24-26k planes built - forecast
45 hell only knows

considering that for most time 20% potential is off to save HI for 45 and that i had perfect conditions to develop.....
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RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??

Post by Andy Mac »

Going back to the original question Are the Japanese now TOO powerful??
 
My answer is NO
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