Japanese production - no PDU game

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

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pauk
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
Once the Corsair arrives, just about everything the Japanese fly will fall in droves.

Not true at all. Pauk just kicked the crap out of Corsairs in his game (and there are other AAR's where this isn't the case as well) so this is a false statement. If the Japanese player keeps a good pilot training program going he will keep air superiority with the allies even with Corsairs flying around. PZB isn't having too much trouble vs them either.

Jim

that is because i'm great player, Jim[:D]. My skills are well known all over the forum[:D][8|]...

seriously, I agree what Andy said and will see if i would be able to keep such loss ratio for another month or year (cant disclose about details here, you will understand)

one more thing to keep in mind why my Samurais were able to kick enemy airforce - i pay more attention to AF than Andy (me thinks). Details can be found in Pauk's corner, page 24, post 716.
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Andy Mac
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Andy Mac »

Range stops them being a war winner but my no 1 strategic goal from now on with SEAC is to attrit those training flights no expense will be spared no risk to great Corsairs and other top allied aircraft will enter the air battle over China
 
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Andy Mac »

I am a little careless as only the allies can be with air losses but I have to admit I am starting to pay more attention now as PDU's change everything in terms of the comparative ability of the air units.
 
The allies dont benefit as much as the Japanese from PDU (as long as restraint is shown over 2E to 4E issue) I am looking forward to finding out how it affects late 43 and 44
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Or some entrepeneurial soul could "simply"* produce a collection of scenarios where

1. Static Allied and Japanese production numbers. You get what was close to historically delivered. No tweaking by either side.
2. Japan and Allied are able to control production.


-F-
I like that -

Option 1 is quite do'able., I'll probably do that some day.
I don't think option 2 is possible - I don't think the Allies "can control" production in as far as expand factories and the like.

B
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dtravel
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by dtravel »

Option #1 already exists.  Just turn Production "Off" in one of the option screens.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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mogami
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by mogami »

Hi. sept 1943 totals
engine 2558
aircraft 1649 (plus 637 RD)

On map 4743 land based 851 carrier based
actual on map totals for fighters

238xTony
210xTojo
672xOscarII

156xA6M5
54xA6M3
297xA6M2

Production
A6M5x487 per month
OscarIIX177
Tonyx96
Tojox76
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Option #1 already exists.  Just turn Production "Off" in one of the option screens.
Well yes, but you still have to go to the Data Base and assign a monthly production schedule for every item, don't you?

B
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dtravel
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by dtravel »

Well, apparently there is no option to turn production off.  The manual implies that there is but I can't find the switch in any of the control screens or specifics in the manual.  So it appears that we have no choice, Production Must Be On!  [:@]
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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jolly_pillager
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by jolly_pillager »

That's not what he said Pauk.

What he said is that, even with e VERY successful expansion phase that captured most of it's goals intact, the Japanese economy was producing a fraction of the airframes you see in a typical PBEM game.

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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by jolly_pillager »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My take on this as the opponent in both games Jim is Pilots in the 75 - 90 range

Exactly, I did say Japan needed to keep up a good pilot training program. But with China sitting there Japan should have no trouble keeping his pilots highly trained at all unless he totally neglects it. My point stands, the Corsair is no uber plane that wins the game like the Japanese players keep pronouncing them to be.

They are definitely a good air frame but not the game winner they seem to think they are.

Jim

This brings up another point that I am convinced of.

Experience ratings are way too high across the board and using ground attack missions to "train" fighter pilots is a massive game exploit.

My gut feeling is that if a rookie pilot was at about 20 XP, a trained one at maybe 35, a veteran at around 50-60 and capped there except for a few elite pilots who could go higher you would see the air combat being a LOT more realistic in results...from kill rates to ops losses.

Hand in hand with this is the notion that it should take 2-3 months to train a pilot from 20 to 35-40 using the training mission.
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Big B »

ORIGINAL: jolly_pillager

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

My take on this as the opponent in both games Jim is Pilots in the 75 - 90 range

Exactly, I did say Japan needed to keep up a good pilot training program. But with China sitting there Japan should have no trouble keeping his pilots highly trained at all unless he totally neglects it. My point stands, the Corsair is no uber plane that wins the game like the Japanese players keep pronouncing them to be.

They are definitely a good air frame but not the game winner they seem to think they are.

Jim

This brings up another point that I am convinced of.

Experience ratings are way too high across the board and using ground attack missions to "train" fighter pilots is a massive game exploit.

My gut feeling is that if a rookie pilot was at about 20 XP, a trained one at maybe 35, a veteran at around 50-60 and capped there except for a few elite pilots who could go higher you would see the air combat being a LOT more realistic in results...from kill rates to ops losses.

Hand in hand with this is the notion that it should take 2-3 months to train a pilot from 20 to 35-40 using the training mission.
I have essentially done that in experiments - and you are correct Sir.

B
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Charles2222
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: marovici
ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I'm not saying that Japan has enough materials acquirable, though it may, to match the USSR, but if they somehow took the territory of the USSR, isn't it possible that sooner or later they wouldn't even surpass the USA? You gain enough key territory though the Pacific probably isn't that large a goldmine and you can expect better industrial output; simple as that.

Theoretically it is possible, but looking at the industrial base you need to build, additional factories for airplane production, factories for machine tools, transportation, infrastructure such as power plants, distribution grids, worker training, etc. It seems quite hard to accomplish all of this from Japanese much lower industrial base. And this is without thinking of management practices, shipping, time needed to achieve this and all the other myriad of factors that impact production. At the same time you have to build ships, rifles, tanks, ammunition and etc. Not to mention you need to take men from working population and regruit them as soldiers, mariners and airmen. As I said theoretically anything is possible, but I would say very, very highly unlikely at the least, because the problem is that you have to build and do so many other things before you can even build airplane factories.

Yes, well I was acknowledging that it might take a while, but I took an example deliberately out of the theatre with an exaggerated example so as to more easily show that the ability to conduct war, or at least war months or years in the future derives from how much materials you have.
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by pauk »

ORIGINAL: jolly_pillager

That's not what he said Pauk.

What he said is that, even with e VERY successful expansion phase that captured most of it's goals intact, the Japanese economy was producing a fraction of the airframes you see in a typical PBEM game.


i always thought that this VERY successful expansion phase ended with plenty of damaged/destroyed oil centers (in RL) and thus Japan was unable to expand their production (at least i've got this impression from the earlier threads where the very same people as we have here said that (more or less))... i think i know what is my problem - i can remember some stuff....
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Charles2222
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Charles2222 »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Option #1 already exists.  Just turn Production "Off" in one of the option screens.

I wouldn't be so convinced that the IJ factories will expand as they did historically. More likely than not you will get the new factories for the new types, and the old factories will remain the same as at the beginning. I suppose if we saw an in-game factory upgrade chart for IJ, that would be convincing.

Naturally, it would also be helpful for the purist if you could know what IJ took and when and then switch historic-build off if you have got the better of history, worse if you can't do as well.
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by ChezDaJez »

Japanese players NEVER complain about the inability to upgrade or swap out air frame types for their groups because they enjoy such a huge surplus of air frames.

Can you show me where this huge surplus of airframes is?

The Japanese start with the following fighters in their pools:

A5M4 Claude- 220
A6M2 Zero- 51
Ki-27 Nate- 710
Ki-43 Oscar- 67

The only surplus is in obsolete aircraft, the Nate and the Claude. The Japanese also start minus some aircraft in their squadrons.

There are the following aircraft shortages in Japanese fighter squadrons at the start of a stock scenario 15:

There are 15 A5M4 squadrons capable of holding 270 aircraft but only 249 are present so reduce the pool by 21.

There are 11 Zero units capable of holding 261 Zeros but only 258 are present so reduce the pool by 3.

There are 18 Ki-27 squadrons capable of holding 504 aircraft but only 459 are assigned so reduce the pool by 45.

There are 2 Ki-43 squadrons capable of holding 72 aircraft but only 59 are assigned so reduce the pool by 23.

So after filling the squadrons to full strength the pools actually look like this:

A5M4 Claude- 209
A6M2 Zero- 48
Ki-27 Nate- 665
Ki-43 Oscar- 44

The pools for the Zero and the Oscar are critically low at the start. If the Japanese player chooses to upgrade any Claude units to Zeros or Nate units to Oscars during Dec 41, he will not be able to replace any combat losses for quite some time.

The stock production rates certainly don't help change anything very quickly. The Japanese player receives the following monthly production from a stock scenario 15 at the start:

A5M4 Claude: 6
A6M2 Zero: 104
Ki-27 Nate: 70
Ki-43 Oscar: 62

Given these figures, it will take over 7 months to upgrade all Nate units to Oscars and this doesn't allow for losses. No fortunately in my game I have only lost 76 Oscars to all causes. But if you account for them, add another 1.5 months production (actually more becuase the losses only cover a 5 1/2 month period, not the 7 it takes to upgrade).

The good news is that it will take less than 3 months to upgrade all of the Claudes to Zeros... assuming no losses. Using a current PBEM game 1 June 9142) I have as a guide, I find that without increasing production, it will take 4.5 months to replace the 472 Zeros I have lost since the beginning. Add to that the 270 Zeros I need to upgrade my Claudes and I find that I need to produce 747 Zeros in a little over 5 1/2 months. Unfortunately my production will provide only 600 Zeros. So after 5 1/2 months of combat I find my self short 147 Zeros if I don't change a thing with production. And that's with a loss rate of only about 90 Zeros a month! By the way the 472 losses are from all causes (and 50 of them came from a very nice raid my opponent conducted on my airfield when my pilots were drinking sake).

Now with PDU on, it becomes much easier because the large Nate and Claude pools allow me to free up replacment aiorcraft for front line units.

The point that I am trying to make here, Jim is that Japanese production is not as plentiful as you believe it to be. It can be made that way if the Japanese player begins expanding his aircraft factories on a regular basis from the beginning. By mid 1942, he should be able to have a decent pool. However, if he overdoes it or if the Allied player gets aggressive with interdicting his supply lines (hopefully not both at the same time), the Japanese player's HI is going to go down the tubes real fast. I've said it before but I'll say it again... an allied player who aggressively interdicts Japan's supply lines on a continuous basis will prevent Japan from enjoying the benefits of any production expansion. No Japanese oil and/or no resource imports = no HI which in turn equals no production.

As an aside, I would like you to consider this thought and give your opinion... In Andy's and PzB's, where would PzB be if he were forced to use historical production rates and no on-map training. I believe that Andy would have been pounding on Japan's doors by mid to late 43, if not earlier. What say you?

I do agree that on principle, the Japanese player should not be able to out produce the allied player. But given the way many players tend to commit their air forces en masse and the bloody air battles that dwarf any historical events, is it any wonder Japanese players greatly increase production just to keep the war going until 1944.

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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by ChezDaJez »

The allies dont benefit as much as the Japanese from PDU (as long as restraint is shown over 2E to 4E issue) I am looking forward to finding out how it affects late 43 and 44

Hopefully not at my expense, Andy![:-]

Chez
Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
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ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
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dtravel
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Option #1 already exists.  Just turn Production "Off" in one of the option screens.

I wouldn't be so convinced that the IJ factories will expand as they did historically. More likely than not you will get the new factories for the new types, and the old factories will remain the same as at the beginning. I suppose if we saw an in-game factory upgrade chart for IJ, that would be convincing.

Naturally, it would also be helpful for the purist if you could know what IJ took and when and then switch historic-build off if you have got the better of history, worse if you can't do as well.

Moot point. I was wrong about being able to turn Production "Off". You can't, there's no option to do so.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by tsimmonds »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Moot point. I was wrong about being able to turn Production "Off". You can't, there's no option to do so.
I think the only time you have a chance to disable production is when you are creating/modifying a scenario. The switch for IJ production is one of the scenario parameters. Which makes sense; it wouldn't be so good to turn IJ production off unless the scenario had been designed for that, i.e. had programmed production for the whole war.
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Hoplosternum »

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Moot point. I was wrong about being able to turn Production "Off". You can't, there's no option to do so.

The option is in the editor. Your scenario/campaign either has Production on or off.

It should be fairly easy (although time consuming) to create a scenario with both Japanese and allied production turned off. Then just add monthly builds at the appropriate amount. You may need to do some balancing with Heavy Industry etc. but assuming honest players all aircraft factories could be made in to Engine factories (now useless) and the Japanese player has to keep these turned on. Using up HI and giving the allies something to bomb. Although of course he won't expand or repair them.

Of course there are other difficulties. One of the problems is that you can only have one number for the replacements. Hellcats are always 144 (or whatever), P 40Bs 10 etc. Every month of the war. This will mean difficult choices need to be made. Do you give the number per month so that by the end of the war roughly the correct numbers have been produced. This will understate the amounts available when they are useful in most cases. Or do you only consider the period before the aircraft is obsolete, allowing far more aircraft into the pools than were made historically, but more accurate amounts in the months that matter?
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RE: Japanese production - no PDU game

Post by Feinder »

What they actually need is an "end production" date.

So you could say P-400s are produced at 10 per month starting in January '42, and ends in March '43 (or whatever).

You'd also have to accomodate for ship-building.

-F-
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