Japanese production - no PDU game

[Nikademus]

Don't forget too that operational wear and tear resulting in lost airframes are not represented and that unservicable aircraft in general are underrepresented.

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Don't forget too that operational wear and tear resulting in lost airframes are not represented and that unservicable aircraft in general are underrepresented.

Yes. This is another reason why I don't think getting the exact numbers correct is what is important.

But if the Japnanese player can play an entire strategy of attrition knowing he can rebuild but the allies can't. And I am not saying he can. Then some sort of change is probably required to offset this. Because this is more or less the reverse of what happened in RL.

[Nikademus]

True.....however i've yet to see any clear example of Japanese uber-plane building (save-wise) without acompanying negative consequences to the Japanese economy.

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

What they actually need is an "end production" date.

So you could say P-400s are produced at 10 per month starting in January '42, and ends in March '43 (or whatever).

You'd also have to accomodate for ship-building.

-F-

Yes this would be nice but of course would require a code change.

A similar thing can be done by using factories and having multiple versions that upgarde to different aircraft and start at different dates. You can then get few at the beginning, a lot in the middle and few or none later on.

But the limited number of aircraft slots in the editor makes this impossible to do except for a couple of designs. Again it would need a serious code change to expand the database to cope with this.

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

True.....however i've yet to see any clear example of Japanese uber-plane building (save-wise) without acompanying negative consequences to the Japanese economy.

Yes I suspect this is more of a frightening thought experiment rather than a real problem for most games. In my one game as Japan I am already halting a lot of aircraft production in mid '42 after a bout of unwise expansion early on [:D]

[mogami]

Hi, seems to me the great hole in any Japanese plan to produce high numbers of aircraft and then try to attrit the Allies is supply.

Aircraft cost supply to place onto map equal to their load value. (A6M2 costs 4 supply points to place onto map)

The surplus aircraft have to be in the pool and then be used to replace lost aircraft. If Home Islands are cut off from resources then they will not be producing much supply. Bases inside the SRA will continue to porduce supply but this surplus will not be able to move outside if Allied player controls airfields.

This would make the Allied offensive up from NG towards Formosa very desirable from Allied point of view. Once Clark Field was in Allied hands the attrition battle would be won.
But the SRA would be cut off before Clark Field was captured if Allies have Mindanao (or some of the other size 4(+) airfields.

The Central Pacific thrust would then be able to proceed.

50,000 surplus Japanese aircraft in pool would remain in pool. (Besides pilots the Japanese cannot afford to waste supply trying to attrit the Allies. They must have good combat ratios and reduce losses) As the war proceeds Japanese will discover they have fewer aircraft for combat ops but have many more conducting training. Battles in Central Pacific will be very bloody but also they will be short in duration. Japan has to win one of these battles in order to have the time to prepare for the next.

The SRA air battles will be much longer and Japan will have to fight them with her best or refuse to fight at all to preserve them. Large numbers of bad aircraft or bad pilots will not attrit the Allied player. (Allied player is trying to reach a 2-1 victory point ratio by 1945 so any aircombat ratio less then 1-1 is not a winning plan for Japan. )

[mlees]

Just curious, as I had never played the Japanese side...

How much supply gets captured from the Allies, overrunning HK, Manilla, Singapore, etc?

Can that supply make up the shortfall?

[ChezDaJez]

If Home Islands are cut off from resources then they will not be producing much supply.

Hi Mogami,

Exactly the message I've been trying to get across. The allied player ultimately controls Japanese late war production through his choice of whether to interdict Japan's supply lines or not.

I don't think I've seen a game yet where a concerted effort was made to cut off the flow of supplies. I think its easier to destroy a gallon of oil in a tanker heading for Japan than it is to destroy a gallon of av gas sitting in a fighter defending Japan.

Many players seem to want to destroy the fleets and air forces. So do I. That's where the glamour is. But the real damage can be done behind the scenes.

Chez

[mogami]

Hi, There is a great "supply" debate. Most of it concenrns supply in 1941/1942 and assumes Japan captures everything in SRA intact.

To understand Japanese supply requirments you must first decide what does Japan need to maintain daily in 1943. How many bases in defense ring and number of fighters on CAP search/patrol aircraft. Supply has to be stockpiled on forward bases because it cannot be brought in once Allied player closes in for battle. (and part of his attack plan will be to destroy supply prior to landing troops so stockpile must be able to absorb some damage and still provide for LCU/base repair and flight ops)

My personal opinion is Japan will require more then 4,000,000 supply stockpiled by late 1943 to survive till 1946. Japanese monthly consumption among bases that will be isolated from SRA imports (IE dependant on stockpiles in Home Islands) multiplied by the number of months remaining once SRA communications severed will provided the lowest stockpile required. (If SRA lost in May 1944 (22 months remaining) and monthy requiment is 50,000 then 1,100,000 supply would be required in stockpile. This does not include supply required for replacements, construction, or combat just the basic requirments. (To illustrate lets say a Japanese base has LCU with basic requirments of 1000 per month and will fly 36 fighters on CAP 9 on patrol and 9 on ASW the monthy requirment for this base is 4240 supply before any combat/construction/replacements )

Japan starts the war with 2,000,000 supply on map and by March 1942 will be experiances shortages. Most players expand factory output expecting to catch up in 1942/43. depending on when and in what condition SRA is captured and how much expansion they attempt and effectivness of Allied attempts to interdict imports you could compute how long will be required to stockpile the required amounts.
In my opinion Japan should never have supply problems unless the Allies are the root cause of them. (In fact I think this is what the game WITP is mostly all about)

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: mlees

Just curious, as I had never played the Japanese side...

How much supply gets captured from the Allies, overrunning HK, Manilla, Singapore, etc?

Can that supply make up the shortfall?

No. the supply captured is needed to help garrison the base or, during an offensive, supliments that drive's supply needs. As I found out very recently...one has to be highly aggressive in devoting AK/TK resources to continuously feed Japan's industries from the [hopefully] intact SRA centers. I managed to shut down my entire economy by 7/43 in one PBEM without even messing with production that much.

[mogami]

Hi, I am in May 1943 in one PBEM and SRA has not been restored to 100 percent production dispite consuming more then 1,000,000 supply from Home Islands in repair.  In this game I have less then half the on map supply I have in another PBEM game that has reached Oct 1943. directly related to this, In the May 1943 game there remain quite a few groups equipped with Nates while in the Oct 1943 game all are flying Tony/Tojo or OscarII

[Nikademus]

How do your pool levels look? (HI/Oil/Resource)

[mogami]

Hi, I'll post them when I do the next turns. (I'll edit the post to fit both games into this post)

Oct 1943
Heavy Industry 14,472 (1,401)
Resource 19,001 (1,658,083)
Oil 2602 (1,385,019)
Supply 4,494,880

basic supply required
4xbases over 10k
6xbases over 5k
10xbases over 4k
13 bases over 3k
14 bases over 2k
36 bases over 1k
213,000+ supply required per month for basic supply (29 months remaining)(6,100,000 supply required for basic supply ****there are another 250 Japanese held bases not included in supply requirements)

[spence]

I don't think I've seen a game yet where a concerted effort was made to cut off the flow of supplies. I think its easier to destroy a gallon of oil in a tanker heading for Japan than it is to destroy a gallon of av gas sitting in a fighter defending Japan.

Absolutely agree with the above.  But an anticommerce strategy is hampered by the mechanics of the game in a most unrealistic way(both sides are so hampered though Japan gets something of work-round with its infinite supply of aerial torpedos and ahistorical "mini-KB"). IRL though a submarine could shadow/follow most merchies if they escaped an initial attack or were only damaged.  In WitP only a lucky WAG between turns allows for finishing off a cripple or "following" a freighter/convoy from turn to turn to make a second attack.

[Nikademus]

Your HI pool looks a bit on the low side.....do you have any plans to expand it or have you already?

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Moot point. I was wrong about being able to turn Production "Off". You can't, there's no option to do so.

The option is in the editor. Your scenario/campaign either has Production on or off.

Which makes it Not An Option for the vast majority of players.

[ChezDaJez]

But an anticommerce strategy is hampered by the mechanics of the game in a most unrealistic way

I agree that the game does not provide a very good model for anticommenrce warfare.

However, in one of my first PBEM games (v1.3 stock scen 15), I was the allied player and had some success interdicting his oil tankers in 1942 and 1943. I relied mostly on the Dutch and Brit subs to do so but I managed to sink 15 or so tankers in the first month I tried it.

Basically what I did was find the main convoy routes that the pathfinding algorythm plots from the 4 main oil centers (Palembang, Soerabaja, Balikpapan and Tarakan). Using a tanker's normal speed, I identified those hexes that convoys ALWAYS stop in (between turn resolutions) if the player allows the AI to plot the route. I made sure that the ones I used were as far from land as possible. I then set up a sub there and let it sit. Sooner or later a tanker will come through there. The most profitable areas were off the north coast of Borneo and the area east of Mindinao.

Whenever I wasn't sure where he had rerouted his tankers, I set up a scout line of 5-6 subs. Sooner or later, I identified them again and was back in business until he responded.

It was like a good game of chess or cat and mouse.

I flooded his LOCs with US subs in early 43. The game ended in mid 43 but by then I had sunk or damaged nearly 50 tankers using just subs and I know he had to augment his tankers with AKs to transport oil. I had lost about 20 subs by including all the Dutch ones. Unfortunately he dropped out citing personal problems.

I wish I had gotten his password because I would have liked to seen what the overall effect was.

So it is possible but you can't take a hit or miss approach to it. And you can't use your subs for any other mission. You just don't have enough to keep one on patrol, one in transit and one in the yard for each hex you want to interdict.

Chez

[mogami]

Hi, I bet Kereguelen will not agree that Allied player cannot interdict imports from SRA to Home Islands. His submarine force pretty much disproves much of what is claimed is possible in WITP. (they have averaged 2 sinkings per day for many months.)

submarines in WITP will follow enemy TF. All you have to do is set them to computer control after they reach the hex you want them to patrol in. They will stay in the assigned hex untill they make a contact and then will follow it on their own. (same as in UV)

also now if they run low on fuel or ammo they will return to home port. It is best if you catch them enroute and reset to human control. (just check your sub TF every turn and see if any are heading to home port)

[mlees]

I played a game vs the AI/Japan into the end of '43.

Sunk a lot of stuff with subs. I have no idea how much the economy was crippled.

But I feel that it takes time. Your not gonna win the economic war in one or maybe even two years. IRL it took until the end of '44 to cripple the Japanese economy.

With one day turns, progress appears glacial.

[ChezDaJez]

Hmmmm, I never used computer controlled subs. Never trusted it. I just might have to check it out.

Chez