Looking for trouble with AFB --> BOUNCE

[castor troy]

Brought this up some time ago, it wasn´t noticed, probably it was deliberately ignored!

No matter what side I play I more and more wondered why my Allied fighters most times get the bounce. Besides being called a JFB I got all kind of reasons why they do... (radar, better climb abilities of Allied fighters,....)

Now I´m playing Nik mod and again was surprised by the bounce of Allied planes on, this time, my Japanese fighters. Knowing how important the bounce is, I checked the max height of the fighters and found out that my Tojos can fly in higher than my Allied counterparts (P40E, Hurricanes IIb, IIc,...). Good I thought, I send my Tojos on a sweep at max height - so I should at least get the FIRST bounce. During the fight of course the fighters gain and lose height so the bounce could change also...

THAT´S WHAT I´VE THOUGHT! AND THAT´S WHAT I´VE BEEN TOLD ON AND ON --> told by people that don´t know it better than me at all it seems. But the strange feeling after doing thousands of turns up to now isn´t always false.

Yes, correct, the Allied fighters got the bounce!!

Combat replay: xy squadron (Hurricane) climbing to intercept --> bouncing yk daitai!! What????? [8|] yk squadron (Warhawk) climbing to intercept --> bouncing yk daitai!! What???? [8|] This went on and on... So the fighters had to climb (at a heigt that they can´t even climb) and then get the bounce... [:-][:-][:-]

Even though i came in at least 3000 feet higher than the Allied fighters at this base could climb (if Prz would have set them at max height - doubt that) the Allied fighters did get the bounce and had this important advantage...

There is no radar, ability to climb fast or whatever AFB may bring up that can boost those planes over their max height in the game. SO THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG!

I don´t care if the heights are correct in the database so don´t bring examples that compare the game stats with the real stats. This isn´t my problem. The problem is that the game handles something wrong here....

[Feinder]

[;)]
-F-

[denisonh]

I have seen fighter sweeps with Zeros bounce the snot out of Allied fighters.

It may be an issue of fighter escort getting bounced.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: denisonh

I have seen fighter sweeps with Zeros bounce the snot out of Allied fighters.

It may be an issue of fighter escort getting bounced.

Nothing related to escort. I said I sent them on a sweep - exactly, I sent them on a sweep at a height 3000 feet above the max height of the defending fighters (if they were set to max height - which I doubt).

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

[;)]
-F-

[8D] And speaking seriously, you don´t find it strange????

[Feinder]

Yes, I would say that, esp if your sweep is set higher than the enemy can possibly go, that it is "peculiar" that you don't get the bounce. I've always thought it was odd when planes can engage each other when one is set a hight that the can't even get to.

'Bout the only think I can think of, what is the air skill of your sqdn commander compared to the enemy (I know you can't know -his- stats). But my only guess would be that your air skill is less than his? Try swapping leaders, see if that helps.

-F-

[wernerpruckner]

maybe you should think what happens during the sweep !!
your A/C fly to the target at given alt, drop to treetop level to strafe the A/F and go back to the base at lets say 6k...

[treespider]

Perhaps you should consider that "Bounce" does not necessarily mean a positional height advantage...

Perhaps "Bounce" just means the side that was first able to get a position of advantage...

The most important thing to a fighter pilot is speed; the faster an aircraft is moving when he spots an enemy aircraft, the sooner he will be able to take the bounce and get to the Hun. If you have any advantage on him, keep it and use it. When attacking, plan to overshoot him if possible, hold fire until within range, then shoot and clobber him down to the last instant before breaking away. It's like sneaking up behind someone and hitting them with a baseball bat.

— Duane W. Beeson, P-51 pilot, 4th Fighter Group

[Vladd]

Given they will they will have to descend from their perch to engage in combat anyway (which the enemy may well see coming) it's still possible they could lose the initiative, especially when large numbers of enemy planes / elements are in the vicinity. I like to think whats happening is the Allied planes are evading the initial bounce and seeking to turn the tables - which sometimes they do.

Having said that, I'm not sure the 'bounce' text is that big a deal anyway. I'll bet a lot of the time your boys get bounced by Huris / P40s they are right back on the attack without the Allied planes firing a shot.

 

[Honda]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Perhaps you should consider that "Bounce" does not necessarily mean a positional height advantage...

Perhaps "Bounce" just means the side that was first able to get a position of advantage...

The most important thing to a fighter pilot is speed; the faster an aircraft is moving when he spots an enemy aircraft, the sooner he will be able to take the bounce and get to the Hun. If you have any advantage on him, keep it and use it. When attacking, plan to overshoot him if possible, hold fire until within range, then shoot and clobber him down to the last instant before breaking away. It's like sneaking up behind someone and hitting them with a baseball bat.

— Duane W. Beeson, P-51 pilot, 4th Fighter Group

The same thing happens with Wirraways. They to get the "free bounce". I belive the there's something like a freebee for allies. I think it wotks out better if Japs send in more squadrons. That way it would be better to have 2 daitais on sweep/50% CAP then one doing CAP and the other sweeping.
Oh, and I did have a KB Zero shot down by a Wirraway just a few days ago... Made me laugh with all my heart[:D]

[ChezDaJez]

maybe you should think what happens during the sweep !!
your A/C fly to the target at given alt, drop to treetop level to strafe the A/F and go back to the base at lets say 6k...

That's not what a sweep does. Your are describing an airfield attack set to a height of 100 feet.

A sweep is designed to clear the air of enemy opposition. As such the sweepers are deliberately searching for enemy fighters.

I do have to agree with Castor Troy that if his fighters are flying higher than what the enemy can achieve, they should not be bounced. Its a physical impossibility. Bouncing denotes achieving surprise, not just achieving a tactical advantage. That doesn't mean the sweepers should always get the bounce either, especially if the sweepers have been detected by the enemy's early warning system, most commonly radar. If the defender has been alerted, he should be taking a position to avoid being bounced but should not achieve a bounce if the enemy is flying higher than the defender is capable of.

In Castor's example, if his fighters did not descend, there would be no combat. So they must descend to initiate combat. The question then is: "Did they achieve surprise?" If they did, they should get the bounce. If they didn't then they have given up their altitude advantage and should now be in a melee. But they should not have been bounced.

Treespider said:

Perhaps you should consider that "Bounce" does not necessarily mean a positional height advantage...

Perhaps "Bounce" just means the side that was first able to get a position of advantage...

quote:

The most important thing to a fighter pilot is speed; the faster an aircraft is moving when he spots an enemy aircraft, the sooner he will be able to take the bounce and get to the Hun. If you have any advantage on him, keep it and use it. When attacking, plan to overshoot him if possible, hold fire until within range, then shoot and clobber him down to the last instant before breaking away. It's like sneaking up behind someone and hitting them with a baseball bat.

— Duane W. Beeson, P-51 pilot, 4th Fighter Group

I agree speed is critical in combat. However it is not maximum speed that is critical, it is relative speed. That is your speed relative to that of the enemy's. Its not how fast you can go, it's how are you going in comparison to the enemy. Many people forget that little fact. The time spent in individual air combat is small, normally a few seconds to a couple of minutes. There is seldom sufficient time to accelerate to maximum speed, especially as doing so means flying in a straight line or diving away. Flying a straight line in combat will get you killed. Diving away is great for building speed or escaping but it takes you out of combat for a period of time.

Plus the attacker's altitude advantage in Castor's example eliminates much of a defender's speed advantage as climbing aircraft are far slower than they would be in level flight. Its only when the faster aircraft have an altitude advantage or when both are relatively level to one another that speed truely becomes critical. Indeed aircraft engaged in a sustained climbing effort should be a distinct tactical advantage compared to the enemy at a higher altitude.

IMO, for a defender to achieve the bounce, he must be able to achieve a tactical advantage where the enemy can be surprised from an altitude advantage. That means at least flying as high as the enemy. If he can't reach the enemy's altitude, he sure can't dictate the fight even with superior speed.

It would not surprise me to learn that altitude was not a deciding factor in determining the bounce in the game. It would be interesting to know if Castor Troy sets his Tojos on high altitude CAP against an allied sweep and still gets bounced.

Chez

[kilowatts]

ORIGINAL: Honda
I belive the there's something like a freebee for allies. I think it wotks out better if Japs send in more squadrons.

To a certain extent there is ... radar. If the base has radar then that gives the defender a head-start in climbing to altitude. Note that the altitude setting has no effect on CAP, the defenders will always climb to the attackers altitude.

Personally I think that the game has some internal setting that prevents aircraft from flying at extreme altitudes. IRL no Tojo pilot would be flying at 36,000ft.

[ChezDaJez]

Personally I think that the game has some internal setting that prevents aircraft from flying at extreme altitudes. IRL no Tojo pilot would be flying at 36,000ft.

They could, and did, while attempting to intercept B-29 raids over Japan. Granted its not common to fly at that altitude unless there is a good reason.

Chez

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: treespider

Perhaps you should consider that "Bounce" does not necessarily mean a positional height advantage...

Perhaps "Bounce" just means the side that was first able to get a position of advantage...

The most important thing to a fighter pilot is speed; the faster an aircraft is moving when he spots an enemy aircraft, the sooner he will be able to take the bounce and get to the Hun. If you have any advantage on him, keep it and use it. When attacking, plan to overshoot him if possible, hold fire until within range, then shoot and clobber him down to the last instant before breaking away. It's like sneaking up behind someone and hitting them with a baseball bat.

— Duane W. Beeson, P-51 pilot, 4th Fighter Group

how should a plane that can´t even get to your height gain a better position to engage you?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: swift

maybe you should think what happens during the sweep !!
your A/C fly to the target at given alt, drop to treetop level to strafe the A/F and go back to the base at lets say 6k...

they don´t go down if CAP is at the airfield and your fighters are set at more than 100 feet...

[castor troy]

Got a couple of more turns in and after watching combat replays for 2 hours I get more and more !"()$*'Ä... Watching aircombat to see ys squadron climbing and bouncing is just weird. No chance to get my Japanese fighters (that are far more experienced than my opponent´s) get to do something against the bounce which is obviously a big advantage during the game´s A2A.

I don´t know if something of the recent patches has fixed / broken something again (I know A2A wasn´t touched, but many things weren´t working properly although they haven´t been touched). I never realized it before but I have seen Allied fighters over Dacca bouncing my fighters for sure over 200 times in a few attacks so this is crap! It would be crap also if my fighters would do that to my enemy´s fighters.

Something is going wrong here, it´s not possible to get the bounce all the time in an airbattle, especially if you´re facing planes that are superior to yours in speed, climb and max. height! [:-]

Probably this thread is worth nothing again, because there IS NOTHING wrong, as in all the other aspects that are perfect... Wonder what the devs would tell each other when they are playing against each other... Ever done that??

[DuckofTindalos]

I think you should be very careful what you put out there, when you have no knowledge to base it on...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I think you should be very careful what you put out there, when you have no knowledge to base it on...

pfff, if you know more (doubt it) then I would be glad if you could enlighten me.[&o] Regarding your comments everywhere you must know everything it seems...

Perhaps the physics in Denmark are different but if you read my posts then perhaps you can explain it to me. If you didn´t read my posts then keep your comments towards me behind your back...

[Sneer]

another doubtful question and answer on horizon
due to  such issues my pbem activity is on hold

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

another doubtful question and answer on horizon
due to  such issues my pbem activity is on hold

I won´t hold my PBEMs but it kind of p****s me off when I watch the combat replay and see an Allied squadron bounce and bounce and bounce on and on and on.... There must be a point where they don´t have the advantage anymore. They can´t always get the bounce because it´s just physically impossible. Especially when they face superior planes and superior pilots...