Iowa class bb vs yamato class

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tsimmonds
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by tsimmonds »

Coming out of the SBS at dawn would not have favored Lee's forces. As you said, they would have been silluetted against the rising sun. Lee would have been able to at least partially negate that by setting up in a crossed T formation. Kurita would have been hampered at the start by his ships needing to navigate a confined space before turning broadside, while Lee would have been prepared and waiting.

According to Morison, Kurita had transited SBS by 0034 on Oct 25. Halsey/Lee would not have been able to be anywhere near there in full strength by then. Even the partial strength force you mention (4BBs) was only just beginning to form up at this time some 60-80 miles NE of SBS.
Did ya know that Spruance, watching the battle unfold with Nimitz and looking at a map, would have placed TF 34's battlewagons precisely where Kurita passed his force the night before Salamar?

Had never heard this, but it would not surprise me. Spruance was a sharpie.
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by Nikademus »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

After the war, Halsey said that the US would have fared better at both the Battle of the Philipine Sea and Leyte if Spruance and Halsey were switched for those two battles. Spruance got criticized for being to passive at Philippine Sea and Halsey got criticized for being too aggressive at Leyte.

Bill

Yes, i recall him [Halsey] saying that. I've personally always felt Spruance was unfairly criticized after PS. In my view, he kept his eye firmly on the ball.....i.e. the true objective of his entire force....the protection of the invasion force, rather than go off on a Beatty style hunt for glory, risking his own men (and those under his protection). It's a rare commander who can toss aside the temptation for glory (or revenge......Halsey had a serious chip on his shoulders regarding his enemy)

Given that the invasion of Saipen was a complete success and Ozawa was repulsed, I'd say Spruance succeeded. So the Japanese fleet wasn't anhilated? that to me doesn't negate his success. Battles of anhilation are rare to begin with and are easy to imagine with the gift of hindsight.

I was even more impressed when 1000's of miles away, Spruance once again made the right call. (in regards to guessing his enemy's true intentions or at least preparing for worst case......and placed TF-34 exactly where it would have intercepted Kurita)

As for Halsey.....his finest hour IMO was during the Guadalcanal campaign. There, his firey aggressiveness was the right tonic to energize the forces under his command and lite a fire under his commanders. When actually onboard a carrier TF force though...that aggressiveness and desire for the "decisive battle" often worked against him.

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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by ckk »

Milan Vego in his new book "The Battle for Leyte,1944" suggests that Nimitz gave the order that let Halsey think that he could go after the IJN. In Operation Plan 8-44, 9/27/44 paragragh 2 (Mission), he directed Halsey to"destroy enemy naval and air forces in or threatening the Phillipenes Area." Then in subparagraph X-Ray of the paragraph 3 (Execution) Nimitz stated "in case opportunity for destruction of major portion of the enemy fleet offers, or can be created, such destruction becomes the primary task"

Nimitz had to know that this gave Halsey a pretty free hand. But it did not absolve him from protecting the invasion if the enemy still had the capabillity, which it stiil did, to disrupt the landings. So the creation of TF 34 was necessary plus keeping one TG of TF 38 for air cover as there were no LBA available.
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by Nikademus »

Right, and Spruance, being there....still ended up whispering to himself as he pointed his finger on the wall map....."This is where i'd place TF-34" [while Halsey's carriers went after the decoy force]

That place was exactly the route Kurita took during the evening. Talk about one of the great what if?'s of the war.

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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by ChezDaJez »

Im surprised by the faith in radar, from my experiance as a radar operator it isnt perfect and plotting shell spashes in anthing above a Sea state 3 is today is almost impossible due to de-clutter processing early radar did not have that the screen would have been full of clutter.

Careful... don't let anyone hear you say that. Radar is magic and can see all, do all at phenomenal ranges regardless of weather or type. [:-][:D][:D]

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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by spence »

Talk about one of the great what if?'s of the war.

Looking at the performance of Kurita's force in the real Battle Off Samar it's hard to imagine that they would have  "made a good fight" had they run into the Fast BBs (etc) of TF34 instead.  Frankly I think it would have been Surigao Strait writ large.     
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by Nikademus »

well thats like saying; "Looking at the preformance of Iowa during her target shoot of a disabled Japanese light cruiser at around 14,000 yards, acheiving no hits despite her advanced radar, its hard to imagine that similar type but larger numbered force of modern US battleships would have "made a good fight" had they run into an acutal Japanese battleforce, at speed with guns manned."

That said....I do feel that in a night battle with limited visibility, the edge would have definately been on the American side. However if Kurita doesn't blindly steam his force into the top of the "T" being formed with his and the American fleet, a serious exchange (vs. a one sided target shoot) could still happen.

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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by wdolson »

Coming out of the SBS at dawn would not have favored Lee's forces. As you said, they would have been silluetted against the rising sun. Lee would have been able to at least partially negate that by setting up in a crossed T formation. Kurita would have been hampered at the start by his ships needing to navigate a confined space before turning broadside, while Lee would have been prepared and waiting.
ORIGINAL: irrelevant
According to Morison, Kurita had transited SBS by 0034 on Oct 25. Halsey/Lee would not have been able to be anywhere near there in full strength by then. Even the partial strength force you mention (4BBs) was only just beginning to form up at this time some 60-80 miles NE of SBS.

I thought Kurita came through the SBS later than that. Passing through at 0 dark 30, Lee would have been better able to set up an Olendorf style ambush.

There is some confusion here about TF 34. Halsey first talked about forming TF 34 on the afternoon of the 24th before he sent the 3rd fleet north. He told Lee to draw up a list of ships for TF 34 drawn from 2 of the carrier task groups. The force Lee drew up had 4 BBs, including both Iowas available at the time.

That force was never formed. Early in the morning of the 25th, way off to the north, Halsey finally formed TF 34 with 6 BBs and sent them on ahead of the carriers.

If the original TF 34 been formed and placed at the exit to SBS as Halsey proposed on the 24th, it would have been in position by early evening on the 24th and would have had ample time to get ready for Kurita.

Bill
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: ckk

Milan Vego in his new book "The Battle for Leyte,1944" suggests that Nimitz gave the order that let Halsey think that he could go after the IJN. In Operation Plan 8-44, 9/27/44 paragragh 2 (Mission), he directed Halsey to"destroy enemy naval and air forces in or threatening the Phillipenes Area." Then in subparagraph X-Ray of the paragraph 3 (Execution) Nimitz stated "in case opportunity for destruction of major portion of the enemy fleet offers, or can be created, such destruction becomes the primary task"

Nimitz had to know that this gave Halsey a pretty free hand. But it did not absolve him from protecting the invasion if the enemy still had the capabillity, which it stiil did, to disrupt the landings. So the creation of TF 34 was necessary plus keeping one TG of TF 38 for air cover as there were no LBA available.

I just finished reading Cutler's book on Leyte. In there he said that the line about taking advantage of any opportunity to destroy the enemy fleet was added by someone on Nimitz's staff. Nobody ever found out who.

In the early part of that book, there was a chapter on Halsey's character. Early in the war there was a time when he was listening to somebody like Tokyo Rose on the radio on the bridge of his carrier. Tauntingly, the person on the broadcast said, "where it the American navy?" Without missing a beat, Halsey barked, "send them our position!"

As far as air cover for TF 34, it was suggested that another TG be formed with 2 CVLs to provide cover for TF 34 while the rest of the carriers go after Ozawa.

Another little bit of trivia, one man was in command of the first US fleet carrier lost during the war and the last one. Frederick Sherman was captain of the Lexington at Coral Sea. At Leyte, he had been promoted to admiral and was in command of TG 38.3 at Leyte Gulf when the Princeton was sunk. Different roles in each case, but an interesting bit of trivia.

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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by tsimmonds »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Coming out of the SBS at dawn would not have favored Lee's forces. As you said, they would have been silluetted against the rising sun. Lee would have been able to at least partially negate that by setting up in a crossed T formation. Kurita would have been hampered at the start by his ships needing to navigate a confined space before turning broadside, while Lee would have been prepared and waiting.
ORIGINAL: irrelevant
According to Morison, Kurita had transited SBS by 0034 on Oct 25. Halsey/Lee would not have been able to be anywhere near there in full strength by then. Even the partial strength force you mention (4BBs) was only just beginning to form up at this time some 60-80 miles NE of SBS.

I thought Kurita came through the SBS later than that. Passing through at 0 dark 30, Lee would have been better able to set up an Olendorf style ambush.

There is some confusion here about TF 34. Halsey first talked about forming TF 34 on the afternoon of the 24th before he sent the 3rd fleet north. He told Lee to draw up a list of ships for TF 34 drawn from 2 of the carrier task groups. The force Lee drew up had 4 BBs, including both Iowas available at the time.

That force was never formed. Early in the morning of the 25th, way off to the north, Halsey finally formed TF 34 with 6 BBs and sent them on ahead of the carriers.

If the original TF 34 been formed and placed at the exit to SBS as Halsey proposed on the 24th, it would have been in position by early evening on the 24th and would have had ample time to get ready for Kurita.

Bill
To talk about when the engagement might have taken place, one must examine what ships would have comprised TF 34, and where they were at what time.

Most of TF 34's heavy hitters would have been drawn from the screen of Sherman's TG 38.3. Sherman's screen included BB's Washington (Lee's flag), Massachusetts, South Dakota, and Alabama, Du Bose's cruisers Santa Fe and Mobile, and Desron 50 (4 Fletcher class DDs). Sherman spent the 24th well to the north of SBS, off Luzon, striking airfields and absorbing airstrikes--during which CVL Princeton was sunk and Birmingham seriously damaged. As late as 2000 Sherman was still more than 150 miles north of SBS, at least 6 hours steaming even at a relatively high speed of 25kts.

Halsey might certainly have started these ships south sooner, but the fact was that he did not do so when Kurita was still steaming eastward in the Sibuyan Sea as late as 1400. As Sherman, having already lost one carrier--the first since Hornet more than two years earlier--was at that time still operating under constant threat of air attack and in fact had fought off 4 seperate attacks by 1400, it is hard to imagine that even someone as non-risk-averse as Halsey would have stripped his screen from him during mid afternoon. In addition, all three TGs were still operating under orders issued the previous evening. Orders for the night and following day were being developed through late afternoon and evening and were issued at 2022. No responsible commander would have wanted to issue orders on the fly, without proper consideration by staff. No, Lee was stuck with Sherman off Luzon, for good or for ill, until after 2030.

What would have been available at 0000 on Oct 25 at the north end of SBS was Halsey with Iowa and New Jersey, 2 CAs, 3 CLs and 3 Desrons (12 Fletchers). A formidible force, but not one with overwhelming superiority like 7th fleet enjoyed at the north end of Surigao Strait the same evening. Also, important to note is that Halsey, not Lee, would be OTC. Not that Halsey is automatically a bad thing, but Lee had been with the BBs for years, and he was the only US admiral present with actual experience in night surface combat.

A further consideration is that Halsey was an aviator. He wanted to fight a carrier battle. He was looking north, not southwest. He would have loathed a deployment that put his flagship New Jersey anyplace other than with the fast carriers looking for a fight with Ozawa.

If you want to argue that Halsey might have deployed differently on the 24th, that is, that he and his staff might have analysed the situation that existed at sundown on the 23rd, reached different conclusions and issued different orders for the next day, you might as well argue that Spruance, not Halsey, might have been in command. [;)]
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: irrelevant
What would have been available at 0000 on Oct 25 at the north end of SBS was Halsey with Iowa and New Jersey, 2 CAs, 3 CLs and 3 Desrons (12 Fletchers). A formidible force, but not one with overwhelming superiority like 7th fleet enjoyed at the north end of Surigao Strait the same evening. Also, important to note is that Halsey, not Lee, would be OTC. Not that Halsey is automatically a bad thing, but Lee had been with the BBs for years, and he was the only US admiral present with actual experience in night surface combat.

I'm going by what was on this website, which I posted yesterday: http://www.chuckhawks.com/task_force_34.htm

Lee's list of ships drawn up on the afternoon of the 24th was:
BB 56 - Washington
BB 60 - Alabama
BB 62 - New Jersey
BB 61 - Iowa
CA 45 - Wichita
CA 32 - New Orleans
CL 64 - Vincennes
CL 89 - Miami
CL 80 - Biloxi
DD 539 - Tingey
DD 536 - Owen
DD 535 - Miller
DD 537 - The Sullivans
DD 673 - Hickox
DD 674 - Hunt
DD 675 - Lewis Hancock
DD 676 - Marshall
DD 651 - Cogswell
DD 650 - Caperton
DD 652 - Ingersoll
DD 653 - Knapp
DD 392 - Patterson
DD 386 - Bagley
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by tsimmonds »

Well, again, Washington (Lee's flag) and Alabama were with Sherman, far to the north. That is the problem you have to solve to get them off SBS at 0000.[;)]
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by ckk »

"I just finished reading Cutler's book on Leyte. In there he said that the line about taking advantage of any opportunity to destroy the enemy fleet was added by someone on Nimitz's staff. Nobody ever found out who."

Vega says that it has been claimed that naval aviators on Nimitz staff added that line, so that Halsey wouldn't be as careful as Spruance at the PS. However given Halsey's aggresiveness, I don't think it mattered
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by tsimmonds »

What would have been available at 0000 on Oct 25 at the north end of SBS was Halsey with Iowa and New Jersey, 2 CAs, 3 CLs and 3 Desrons (12 Fletchers). A formidible force, but not one with overwhelming superiority like 7th fleet enjoyed at the north end of Surigao Strait the same evening.

In fact, this OB sounds like a fine tactical simulation:

IJN
BBs Yamato, Nagato, Kongo, Haruna
CAs Chokai, Chikuma, Tone, Suzuya, Kumano,Myoko, Haguro
CLs Yahagi, Noshiro
DDs Shimakaze, 9 Yugumo, 5 Kagero

BBs Iowa, New Jersey
CAs Wichita, New Orleans
CLs Biloxi, Vincennes, Miami
DDs 12 Fletcher, 2 Bagley

What game system/software would you use to game that?[;)]

Seapower III sounds like lots of fun, but I'm not sure I'd have the patience for that after so many years of computer gaming[:(][8|]
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RE: Iowa class bb vs yamato class

Post by SireChaos »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
ORIGINAL: wdolson

Good analysis RAM. The only time the Yamato fired her guns in anger was at the Battle Off Samar. She had the disadvantage of firing armor piercing shells at unarmored targets, so they tended to sail right through. However, I don't believe the Yamato's shooting was all that accurate in that fight. I haven't read up on the battle lately, but I seem to recall that only a few 18" shells hit anything.

Bill
ORIGINAL: RAM
I've never seen anything that points at a single hit by those guns on enemy ships, ever. The only surface action they saw was during Leyte Gulf battles, and as I said, I'm still to see anything that proofs that 18.1'' shells hit anything at that battle.

If someone has documented proof that says otherwise I'd be very interested in seeing it :).

The Battle Off Samar is what the engagement where the Japanese surface force attacked Taffy 3 during Leyte. The Yamato was chasing a much slower task force than a surface fleet built around an Iowa would have been and Taffy 3's escorts were much lighter armed than any BB surface task force, yet Kurita had trouble scoring hits with his 18 inch guns. The carriers were hit and one was sunk by gun fire. I don't know who hit what and couldn't find anything in a quick seach of the web.

This would make an even better argument for the Iowa mopping the floor in a battle with the Yamato. If the Yamato struggled to hit anything at Samar, where the deck was stacked in the Japanese's favor, then it would not have fared well against a well equipped US surface force.

If Halsey had left his fast battleships behind to guard the San Bernadino Strait, as everyone else thought he did, then the Yamato may have had a chance to engage not one Iowa, but all the Iowas, as well as the other fast battleships. It not only would have prevented the disaster off Samar from happening, but it would have settled this issue forever.

Bill

Uh... the destroyers, at least, were fast and maneuverable. Main guns, much less 18.1", were never designed to hit destroyers; that´s what the secondary battery was for.
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