Japan Map

[Incy]

Here is what I was envisioning.
Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

[Incy]

btw, if preserving the status of WiFFE is a goal, the vlad resource should be on the coast next to Vlad. In WiFFE it's common that Japan produces for the resource while russia still holds Vlad

[trees]

I thought "Nomohan" was a river? Is it maybe a river too small to make the WiF map? On the other hand for some reason the expression "the plains of Nomohan" from some history book sticks in my mind. There would definitely be a lot of interest in where exactly this place was by any MWiF player.

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: trees

I thought "Nomohan" was a river? Is it maybe a river too small to make the WiF map? On the other hand for some reason the expression "the plains of Nomohan" from some history book sticks in my mind. There would definitely be a lot of interest in where exactly this place was by any MWiF player.

That is somewhere closer to Mongolia though no?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Incy

Here is what I was envisioning.
Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

I find this not bad at all.
I'd even say that this is very good. [:D] Thanks [&o]

I'll see, if Steve agrees, to have the lake shifted by the graphic artist. I'm not even obliged to ask the graphic artist to do that, i can also simply change the name of the RVR files that make the lake, and shift them 1 hexrow.
Changing the border is trivial to do too.

Steve, others, opinion ?

[Froonp]

Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

I'd make hex W of Vlad mountains, and hex NW clear, this is the best representation of the local area.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Incy

btw, if preserving the status of WiFFE is a goal, the vlad resource should be on the coast next to Vlad. In WiFFE it's common that Japan produces for the resource while russia still holds Vlad

Yes, but there also the goal of making a faithfull map to reality, and here the coal deposits are not on the shore, they are quite inland.
The case is also happening in China.

This is a 1935 map :

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Incy
Here is what I was envisioning.
Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

I find this not bad at all.
I'd even say that this is very good. [:D] Thanks [&o]

I'll see, if Steve agrees, to have the lake shifted by the graphic artist. I'm not even obliged to ask the graphic artist to do that, i can also simply change the name of the RVR files that make the lake, and shift them 1 hexrow.
Changing the border is trivial to do too.

Steve, others, opinion ?

Moving the lake to the right appears to require no new bitmap graphics, though if we decide to do that, Rob will need to be informed so he can modify his master version of the map so they match.

Positioning the lake eastwards brings it more in line with geographic reality, which is a good thing. I do not know about changing the country boundaries. People with maps of the area circa 1940 can judge better than I can.

I believe all the terrain around the lake would need to be reviewed. Indeed, that should be done for all the hexes between Vladivostok and the lake too.

If we are going to mess around with area, then we should make sure we get it right. I do not want to keep coming back for additional modifications repeatedly.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I forgot to add:

The new city/cities in Manchuria should be shown. Moving the country border is going to mean the some hexes in Manchuria will again be out of supply for the Japanese.

[Froonp]

Moving the lake to the right appears to require no new bitmap graphics, though if we decide to do that, Rob will need to be informed so he can modify his master version of the map so they match.

Positioning the lake eastwards brings it more in line with geographic reality, which is a good thing. I do not know about changing the country boundaries. People with maps of the area circa 1940 can judge better than I can.

I believe all the terrain around the lake would need to be reviewed. Indeed, that should be done for all the hexes between Vladivostok and the lake too.

If we are going to mess around with area, then we should make sure we get it right. I do not want to keep coming back for additional modifications repeatedly.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I forgot to add:
The new city/cities in Manchuria should be shown. Moving the country border is going to mean the some hexes in Manchuria will again be out of supply for the Japanese.

Here is what I propose, seen on this map.
- Yellow arrows show where I moved borders.
- Cian arrows show where the lake hexsides have moved (as Incy proposed).
- Pink "T" show where Terrain was changed (to mountain).

I added Kirin, which should stay on the map, and Tsitsihar, just for the sake of seeing how it was to put it on.
I did not push the border between Manchuria & Russia on all 3 hexes, only the most northward and the most southward ones, because the borderline here west of Lake Khanka is more like a straight vertical line. So the middle hex could have been either on one side, or the other, and to go with minimal changes, I chose to let it how it was.

[Froonp]

I did not change the railway crossroads north of Vlad, as Incy did, because I think it is better represented as this.

Here is a august 1945 map of the area.
The border (black line ) can be seen between the red and green armies west of Vlad, the vertical line west of the lake.
We can also see that the crossroad (Voroshilov) is more to the south, as it is on my drawing.

As a note, we can also see that there is a railway linking Khabarovsk to Komsomolsk, to Soverskaya Gavan, showing that the Russians had built it as of August 1945. But this I already knew, as the Russian guy I talked to told me. It is a part of the Baikal Amur railway that was built at the end of the war, from the east.

We also see that the railway in Manchuria (in august 1945) extended all the way to Aigun, near Blago&%$$ in the north.

We also see that the terrain is mostly mountains west of the lake, swampy in the north end, we also see that the Vlad - Voroshilov - Khanka area is mostly plains.

This all lead me to think that this modifications shown in post #130 is good.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Moving the lake to the right appears to require no new bitmap graphics, though if we decide to do that, Rob will need to be informed so he can modify his master version of the map so they match.

Positioning the lake eastwards brings it more in line with geographic reality, which is a good thing. I do not know about changing the country boundaries. People with maps of the area circa 1940 can judge better than I can.

I believe all the terrain around the lake would need to be reviewed. Indeed, that should be done for all the hexes between Vladivostok and the lake too.

If we are going to mess around with area, then we should make sure we get it right. I do not want to keep coming back for additional modifications repeatedly.

I think this version by Froonp looks very well. Great work. [:)]

I support adding both new cities in Manchuria (Kirin and Tsitsibar).

[lomyrin]

Looks very good to me too.
 
Lars

[YohanTM2]

I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

[Incy]

I like it!!

As for the Vlad resource, since this is coal, and given how it is located, I think it would not be usable unless Vladivostok is controlled by the same side. So I think the current map represents this well. But in game terms, japan wil loose out, because in WiFFE this is a resource that is easlily accessible to Japan.
I support the map as it is now, but moving this resource could be considered for game balance if Japan needs a boost after we see how things playtest.

btw, the little stub of railway in Manchuria near Vlad should be moved one hex east.

The terrain also looks good to me.

Moving a bit further east, I think maybe the coastal mountains east of Vlad should extend one more hex inland at places.
From a logistical and military perspective, it seems pretty obvious that the only good axis of advace between Vlad and Khabarovsk is along the river valley, where the rail goes. I think if Japan wants to fight northwards along the rail from Vlad (or the russians the other way) they should not enjoy the advantage of a 2-hex wide gap with nice terrain, and the map you posted above sure looks mountainous almost all the way to the river.

Finally, I would be interested in learning when the Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk rail was built. Komsomolsk and Sovietskaya Gayan was built late in the war, but I've read no mention of when Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk was built.

Incy

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

Read post #127 above for Patrice's discussion about the resource being on the coast.

-----------------
I like this version.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

ORIGINAL: Incy
Finally, I would be interested in learning when the Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk rail was built. Komsomolsk and Sovietskaya Gayan was built late in the war, but I've read no mention of when Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk was built.

Incy

Look at this link:
http://www.trans-siberian-rail.com/tran ... Khabarovsk

It says that Khabarovsk was finally linked by railroad to Komsomolsk in 1940. So it means the Russians started to build the railroad earlier than 1940. So maybe this is early enough to place a railroad between Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk on the MWIF map?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

ORIGINAL: Incy
Finally, I would be interested in learning when the Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk rail was built. Komsomolsk and Sovietskaya Gayan was built late in the war, but I've read no mention of when Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk was built.

Incy

Look at this link:
http://www.trans-siberian-rail.com/tran ... Khabarovsk

It says that Khabarovsk was finally linked by railroad to Komsomolsk in 1940. So it means the Russians started to build the railroad earlier than 1940. So maybe this is early enough to place a railroad between Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk on the MWIF map?

Read this again :

**********************************************************
Siberia - Wsevolod" <wsevolod@tdk-n.com>

Hello, Patrice!

I am glad for your interest for our subject.
The history of BAM- in short- is sush.
Indeed,the beginning of BAM construction attributs to 1930. It was very difficult to construct without any mechanism. It was the result of slow work. In the second part of 1930 the government sent many political prisoners to construct Transsib- Just Skovorodino, there was one of the parts of Gulag. "A little BAM" was opened in 1940, the rail-tracks connected Tinda and Skovorodino.
But the beginning of the Second World War stopped the building because all the people-builders were sent to the front. In 1942 the ready construction (part Skovorodino-Tinda) was quickly stripped (or dismantled) and the rail-tracks were sent to Stalingrad, where before the well-known Stalingrad Battle the rocad railway lines (parallel to the main front) has been constructed. It was very important to supply technics and food products for Soviet troops!
From 1943(!) started (with great secrecy) the construction of the east extension of BAM the line Komsomolsk-Soviet Gavan on the Far East / but after the end of the Second World War we had one more serious enemy in the East-Japan.
Under bad conditions, without roads, the building of the railway in the East started.
In 1945(!) this line was put into operation (on the eve of the Victory). War technics, fuel resourcts, food were transfered to Soviet Gavan.
In August 1945 the USSR began active actions against the ally of Germany- Japan/
Thancs to the fact that railway was ready soviet troops crushed Japan in 2 weeks.
In 1951 the line Izvestkovaja-Urgal was constructed. In 1954 the rails reached Ust-Kut (on Lena river).
Since 1970 began the main buildng of BAM joining all of these points Ust-Kut - Tinda - Urgal - Komsomolsk.
Just is the history in short, my dear!

With best regards.
Wsevolod.
**********************************************************

So he says that a lot of the pre-1940 railway was dismantled and used for the frontline, and I think that this part of the railway (Khabarovsk - Komsomolsk) may not have been operational.

This thought is reinforced by the fact that this railway does not appear neither on my 1935 nor my 1944 Atlas (I'll check again tonight to be sure).

Morover, there already was complaint about the mere existence in WiF of Komsomolsk, so I would not want to add more complaint by adding a railway to it, that seems not justified.

[Froonp]

Moving a bit further east, I think maybe the coastal mountains east of Vlad should extend one more hex inland at places.
From a logistical and military perspective, it seems pretty obvious that the only good axis of advace between Vlad and Khabarovsk is along the river valley, where the rail goes. I think if Japan wants to fight northwards along the rail from Vlad (or the russians the other way) they should not enjoy the advantage of a 2-hex wide gap with nice terrain, and the map you posted above sure looks mountainous almost all the way to the river.

For me they are more like rolling hills, so I think that the forest terrain might be ok. Forest is not just "nice terrain", and anyway any northward advance is channeled by the railway for supply.

[Froonp]

btw, the little stub of railway in Manchuria near Vlad should be moved one hex east.

I don't think so.
Looking at map in post #131, we see that this stub is the start of a northward going railway that got completed by august 1945, and it was at about two thirds of the way from Harbin to the Lake. Its position on map in post #130 show it is properly placed imo.