Japan Map

[Incy]

"A little BAM" was opened in 1940, the rail-tracks connected Tinda and Skovorodino.
But the beginning of the Second World War stopped the building because all the people-builders were sent to the front. In 1942 the ready construction (part Skovorodino-Tinda) was quickly stripped (or dismantled) and the rail-tracks were sent to Stalingrad

This has nothing to do with Komsomolsk.
The Skovorodino-Tinda line runs N/NW starting from roughly the "top" of manchuria. Indeed, it could also be put on the map, but would have vey little game impact, as it leads to nowhere. And it was also deconstructed during the war.

I don't think so.
Looking at map in post #131, we see that this stub is the start of a northward going railway that got completed by august 1945, and it was at about two thirds of the way from Harbin to the Lake. Its position on map in post #130 show it is properly placed imo.

Atually, there are 2 separate railroads. There was a railroad running into the swamp just west of the border, almost to lake Khanka. It isn't on the military map, but is in the maps in posts 127 and in the wikipedia map. The railroad you mention is also a consideration. As you say, it was extended during the war, and it seems it was a pretty well established transport corridor.

Here is a map with some possible adjustments, I'm not saying they should all go in, (especially the grey parts).

-Korea looses a hex to Manchuria
-railroad rerouted in NW Korea
-link from Korea border and nortwards. The parts I believe were constructed during the war (based on the maps above) are in grey, not black. Maybe they could be roads??!
-Link near the boarder to lake Kanka (there are coalfields there)
-link we forgot south of Changchun
-the railroad in the west near Nomonohan is way to short? (again, road near the end?).
-In the bottom west corner, I've dotted some rail in red. I can't see this rail in any of the maps posted in this thread! I know you have it in your war atlas, but all the other maps indicate it's not there? It's a fairly critical raillink, as without it, a single PART/invading unit can cut Manchria and China apart
-I've drawn in where I believe the Komsomolsk rail would start

[Froonp]

Atually, there are 2 separate railroads. There was a railroad running into the swamp just west of the border, almost to lake Khanka. It isn't on the military map, but is in the maps in posts 127 and in the wikipedia map. The railroad you mention is also a consideration. As you say, it was extended during the war, and it seems it was a pretty well established transport corridor.

You're right that there are 2 separate railways. The most advanced one is the one near Lake Khanka as you said, so I'll move the bit already drawn. The other one is non existent in 1935. I'll what it becomes on the 1940 Atlas I should receive soon.

-Korea looses a hex to Manchuria
-railroad rerouted in NW Korea

Why ? Korea seem good to me as it is. I prefer to make minimal changes.

-link from Korea border and nortwards. The parts I believe were constructed during the war (based on the maps above) are in grey, not black. Maybe they could be roads??!

My opinion is no to roads. Either railways or nothing. Roads are exceptionally rarely used in WiF.
As for this link, it is absent from WiF FE maps, so I prefer leaving it out.

-Link near the boarder to lake Kanka (there are coalfields there)
-link we forgot south of Changchun

It seems to be a late war bit. I prefer to leave it out too. Manchuria begins to get too much railways !

-the railroad in the west near Nomonohan is way to short? (again, road near the end?).

I'll see how long it seems in 1940.

-In the bottom west corner, I've dotted some rail in red. I can't see this rail in any of the maps posted in this thread! I know you have it in your war atlas, but all the other maps indicate it's not there? It's a fairly critical raillink, as without it, a single PART/invading unit can cut Manchria and China apart

This one is present on my 1944 map, and not on my 1935 map. But as it is present on the WiF FE map, I suppose it should stay on the MWiF maps.

-I've drawn in where I believe the Komsomolsk rail would start

I'll see on the 1940 maps whether it appears or not, but I'd prefer to leave it out.


Finaly, the only thing I would agree, would be to shift the small rail bit 1 hex to the east, as you initially asked.

Anyway, except all those rail bickering, do people agree for the changes with Lake Khanka being shifted to the east, as shown on post 130 and 141 ? The railways can be changed easily, but the lake won't be changeable again after.

I wonder if it would be slightly better to have the lake cover the hexside between both cian arrows, rather than the one it currently covers. It would seems to be less on the north-south russian border, and more on the east-west border.

[Froonp]

Here is what it would be as I propose it.

For the length of the eastern bit towards Nomonhan, the Khabarovsk to Komsomolsk (I would prefer it to stay out) and the little Kirin link, I'll see on my 1940 maps yet to be received.

I'll also see on my 1940 map if the railway that goes from Tsitsihar to China (not represented here -- that currently stops in the hex NW of the "MA" of Manchuria), who runs parallel to the one from Harbin to Mukden, should exist or not.

[Froonp]

Here is also a reminder of how it is in WiF FE.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I prefer the lake farther east (right side of the map), mainly because it then places the swamp to the west of the lake. From the map of the terrain in the area (posted earlier) the swamp should be to the west of the lake and not to its north or NE.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I prefer the lake farther east (right side of the map), mainly because it then places the swamp to the west of the lake. From the map of the terrain in the area (posted earlier) the swamp should be to the west of the lake and not to its north or NE.

OK.

By looking at previous posts, it seems you agreed to Tsitsihar being a city too ?

[YohanTM2]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

Read post #127 above for Patrice's discussion about the resource being on the coast.

-----------------
I like this version.

I am referring to play balance, I like it the way it was

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Yohan

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Yohan
I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

Read post #127 above for Patrice's discussion about the resource being on the coast.

-----------------
I like this version.

I am referring to play balance, I like it the way it was

Sorry, but at this point I am not sure what your 'it' refers to.

[Froonp]

Here is how the Manchuria / Russian Far East near Vladivostok is looking now, after I have made the modifications shown in post #143. The changes are :
- Shifted Lake Khanka 1 hex E.
- Added Tsitsihar city in Manchuria.
- Added a bit of railway at Korea / Russia border.
- Added a bit of railway West of Lake Khanka (moved it 1 hex E indeed).
- Made hex 61,159 & 63,159 Manchurians.
- Made hex 64,160 mountain

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I like this, assuming other forum members agree.

[Jeff Gilbert]

I agree, this looks good based on my limited knowledge and research.

[lomyrin]

Looks fine to me.
 
Lars

[paulderynck]

OK I'm new here and apologies if this has been discussed before, but I notice the resource hex northeast of Vladivostok is no longer on the coast.

To me this represents a gap between the boardgame and the computer game because it significantly changes the way Japan must operate if it is interested in taking this resource hex from Russia and using it for itself. It is not the tactics of the situation that interests me but rather the philosophy apparent in attempting to render the boardgame in MWiF.

It may seem like a minor difference and I understand all hexes are now on the European scale and obviously unit density in Asia has to be affected. But the fact that the resource hex is now inland actually creates a whole set of problems for Japan in extracting it - that are not in the boardgame. This means MWiF design has impacted WiF strategy and tactics. IMO such changes force MWiF to be a different game. It could turn out to be a better game, but has there been discussion as to what degree MWiF should replicate the boardgame and what degree of change is desired?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

OK I'm new here and apologies if this has been discussed before, but I notice the resource hex northeast of Vladivostok is no longer on the coast.

To me this represents a gap between the boardgame and the computer game because it significantly changes the way Japan must operate if it is interested in taking this resource hex from Russia and using it for itself. It is not the tactics of the situation that interests me but rather the philosophy apparent in attempting to render the boardgame in MWiF.

It may seem like a minor difference and I understand all hexes are now on the European scale and obviously unit density in Asia has to be affected. But the fact that the resource hex is now inland actually creates a whole set of problems for Japan in extracting it - that are not in the boardgame. This means MWiF design has impacted WiF strategy and tactics. IMO such changes force MWiF to be a different game. It could turn out to be a better game, but has there been discussion as to what degree MWiF should replicate the boardgame and what degree of change is desired?

Yes, there has been a lot of discussion on those topics. And it is all available for you to read and critique within the MWIF threads. There are separate threads on the Russian map (Mother Russia) and the China map. China required a ton of work by many individual contributors (Wosung and Patrice in particular) because the number of hexes in China increased times 6!

[paulderynck]

Hi Patrice,

I've reviewed this thread, especially your posts #127, #143, #144 and #149 and I would like to further discuss the placement of the resource near Vlad.

I saw the list of objectives for the map, to reprise:
1 - true to geology and geography (e,g., terrain type and city placement)
2 - true to history (e.g., political boundaries and rail lines)
3 - true to WIF FE.
but I'm unclear on the prioritization of these.

Simply put, compare a Japanese attack on Russia in WIFFE vs. MWIF:
WIFFE: Invade the coastal resource hex, put a convoy in the sea zone and beginning with the current turn enjoy an increase of one PP. Often Vlad may be attacked but not necessarily occupied.
MWIF: Forget about using the resource until you take Vlad.

To me that seems a fairly significant violation of objective 3.

Furthermore the map in your post 127 shows Suchan more east then northeast of Vlad. Presumably Suchan would be important to the collection of the coal in the area, but there are other coal deposits even closer to the coast than Suchan is.

[Froonp]

Well, Paul, I would not say that you're wrong, especially regarding the position of Suchan.
There are people supporting the RP on the shore view, others supporting to let it where it was in the first place by the original designers of CWiF.
I must admit that I'm in doubt now.

Also, I would not want this to be a sign that all RP that Japan could access to in WiF FE that were on the shore because of scale to be moved on the shore here too. There are more than simply this one.

Is it really a problem to consider that taking Vlad is necessary to ship the resource ? I understand that it goes agains point #3 that you listed (immediate landing = immediate profit), but it also goes against the gamey strategy of attacking Russia without attacking Vlad (for surrender problems), which is ahistorical & cheesy. The Japanese would have no problems in taking Vlad, and can take it in the first place very easily, so why not leave it this way ?

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Well, Paul, I would not say that you're wrong, especially regarding the position of Suchan.
There are people supporting the RP on the shore view, others supporting to let it where it was in the first place by the original designers of CWiF.
I must admit that I'm in doubt now.

Also, I would not want this to be a sign that all RP that Japan could access to in WiF FE that were on the shore because of scale to be moved on the shore here too. There are more than simply this one.

Is it really a problem to consider that taking Vlad is necessary to ship the resource ? I understand that it goes agains point #3 that you listed (immediate landing = immediate profit), but it also goes against the gamey strategy of attacking Russia without attacking Vlad (for surrender problems), which is ahistorical & cheesy. The Japanese would have no problems in taking Vlad, and can take it in the first place very easily, so why not leave it this way ?

This goes back to my first post on the subject - it is a question of philosophy. If the decision had first been made to absolutely replicate WIFFE, then there would be three map scales - along with all the attendant programming difficulties that would entail. No doubt those difficulties plus the allure of a world-wide single map scale were what drove CWIF and MWIF toward that decision. Once you make that decision (and believe me, I'm not campaigning to reverse it), you automatically make MWIF a different game. I don't have the benefit of having played CWIF to know what the change in unit density does to WIF in the Pacific, but no doubt it must affect things.

So now the line is crossed, and the risk you run is to be carried away with all the things that by committee seem to need "fixing" and then the purists may be dissapointed with the game when it is published. The WIF community is not very large and we want MWIF to be successful so one must try not to alienate a portion of an already small user group.

As for cheesy, if you have never done the following:
- not taken Vlad so the Russian cannot force peace before you take 2 or 3 more undefended RPs
- not taken the last factory in France or China that would allow the country to surrender, so that you can complete your plans without that tactic being pulled by the Allies
- flown every available Ftr and Nav into the 1-box of the Italian Coast when the Wallies invade
- backed out of or did not progress into a DoW'd Russia in MA41 so that they would not get a production boost
- attacked in Siberia but not in European Russia so they would not get a production boost
- purposely put the Eastern Front Wehrmaht OOS, so Russia would not get a production boost
- delayed attacks into E. Prussia in the late game with Russia so Germany would not get a production boost
- taken the Italian armed forces out of Italy when it is close to surrender
- lent all the Italian BPs to Germany when it is close to surrender
- built the "Bordeaux Redoubt" with the CW
- done a zillion anti-U.S. entry actions with Ge/It after the U.S. goes to war with Japan, so that their "it's war" table becomes less propitious
- etc. etc.
THEN, you may cast the first lump of cheese.

Fact is, last time I looked, all of those tactics were legal under RAW. Shall the MWIF design repair all those? (I'm sure I could think of more, but I am tired of typing and no doubt you may be growing tired of reading.)

I conclude by saying, IMO, all the coastal RPs available to Japan in WIFFE ought to stay that way in MWIF. However, if they don't, I still intend on buying the game.[;)]

[Froonp]

(I'm sure I could think of more, but I am tired of typing and no doubt you may be growing tired of reading.)

I'm not tired of reading you, on the contrary.
About the cheesy things (amongst which at least half I never done), I'm not advocating that MWiF should chase & remove them, I'm just saying that here we are killing 2 birds with a single stone (the cheesy thing removed, the geography satisfied -- as I don't think that Suchan was a port nor that there was a port available to ship the coal out of Russia without going through Vlad).

I conclude by saying, IMO, all the coastal RPs available to Japan in WIFFE ought to stay that way in MWIF. However, if they don't, I still intend on buying the game.

They all are the result of design decisions made in the time of CWiF, in which Harry was implicated, and that he approved. My only part in this now, is just overall checking about details (putting names on resources, drawing the drafts of the coastlines & lakes, looking at cities' population...)
RP that were coastal and that are no more will not be a big problem IMO for Japan.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Well, Paul, I would not say that you're wrong, especially regarding the position of Suchan.
There are people supporting the RP on the shore view, others supporting to let it where it was in the first place by the original designers of CWiF.
I must admit that I'm in doubt now.

Also, I would not want this to be a sign that all RP that Japan could access to in WiF FE that were on the shore because of scale to be moved on the shore here too. There are more than simply this one.

Is it really a problem to consider that taking Vlad is necessary to ship the resource ? I understand that it goes agains point #3 that you listed (immediate landing = immediate profit), but it also goes against the gamey strategy of attacking Russia without attacking Vlad (for surrender problems), which is ahistorical & cheesy. The Japanese would have no problems in taking Vlad, and can take it in the first place very easily, so why not leave it this way ?

This goes back to my first post on the subject - it is a question of philosophy. If the decision had first been made to absolutely replicate WIFFE, then there would be three map scales - along with all the attendant programming difficulties that would entail. No doubt those difficulties plus the allure of a world-wide single map scale were what drove CWIF and MWIF toward that decision. Once you make that decision (and believe me, I'm not campaigning to reverse it), you automatically make MWIF a different game. I don't have the benefit of having played CWIF to know what the change in unit density does to WIF in the Pacific, but no doubt it must affect things.

So now the line is crossed, and the risk you run is to be carried away with all the things that by committee seem to need "fixing" and then the purists may be dissapointed with the game when it is published. The WIF community is not very large and we want MWIF to be successful so one must try not to alienate a portion of an already small user group.

As for cheesy, if you have never done the following:
- not taken Vlad so the Russian cannot force peace before you take 2 or 3 more undefended RPs
- not taken the last factory in France or China that would allow the country to surrender, so that you can complete your plans without that tactic being pulled by the Allies
- flown every available Ftr and Nav into the 1-box of the Italian Coast when the Wallies invade
- backed out of or did not progress into a DoW'd Russia in MA41 so that they would not get a production boost
- attacked in Siberia but not in European Russia so they would not get a production boost
- purposely put the Eastern Front Wehrmaht OOS, so Russia would not get a production boost
- delayed attacks into E. Prussia in the late game with Russia so Germany would not get a production boost
- taken the Italian armed forces out of Italy when it is close to surrender
- lent all the Italian BPs to Germany when it is close to surrender
- built the "Bordeaux Redoubt" with the CW
- done a zillion anti-U.S. entry actions with Ge/It after the U.S. goes to war with Japan, so that their "it's war" table becomes less propitious
- etc. etc.
THEN, you may cast the first lump of cheese.

Fact is, last time I looked, all of those tactics were legal under RAW. Shall the MWIF design repair all those? (I'm sure I could think of more, but I am tired of typing and no doubt you may be growing tired of reading.)

I conclude by saying, IMO, all the coastal RPs available to Japan in WIFFE ought to stay that way in MWIF. However, if they don't, I still intend on buying the game.[;)]

Here comes a lump of cheese - Duck![:D]

I have never done any of the things you listed. About the closest I have come is playing it free and easy with the exchange of RP/BP between Italy and Germany, to optimize builds. I tend to play games "straight up" without recourse to controversial interpretations from rules lawyers. I just simply pound on my opponents until they are vanquished.

One of the thoughts we had when changing the map scale - and we relied on this quite a bit at times - was that the WIF FE designers were constrained by the larger scale and forced to merge places on the map into a single hex. By going worldwide to the finer scale of the European map, we were able to position places more accurately - an option the was not possible with the larger scale. I do not think of this so much as 'correcting' the WIF FE maps, but rather as taking advantage of the finer detail to do things that I believe the original designers would have done if they hadn't been constrained.

This does change the game, specifically in terms of play balance. And we have worried about that a great deal, constantly revisiting decisions in light of new information/ideas (as Patrice is doing with your concern about the placement of the Vlad resource). I might mention here that the position of the resource can be changed rather easily by editing the data files (CSVs), should a player so desire. Though as others have mentioned, whatever decisions are made for the various data fields (and rules interpretations) when MWIF is released are likely to become defacto standards. I worry about that too, having absolutely no desire to become a final arbiter of things WIF.

As you point out, once the decision for the European scale worldwide was made, there are unavoidable repercussions. We do the best we can, and listen to all the advice that is given (some of which is for diametrically opposite choices).

[Froonp]

One of the thoughts we had when changing the map scale - and we relied on this quite a bit at times - was that the WIF FE designers were constrained by the larger scale and forced to merge places on the map into a single hex. By going worldwide to the finer scale of the European map, we were able to position places more accurately - an option the was not possible with the larger scale. I do not think of this so much as 'correcting' the WIF FE maps, but rather as taking advantage of the finer detail to do things that I believe the original designers would have done if they hadn't been constrained.

I would also like to add that I heard (I do not remember if it was by direct conversation with him, or if it was read somewhere) that the European scaled map was the map that Harry would have wished to have in WiF too.
Space constrains and production costs lead to the Pacific Scaled maps and off-map areas.