The revised patch seems to have done nothing

[Scott_WAR]

I am beginning to wonder.......
The 3d engine is going to get redone...
The sim engine is going to get redone...

Whats NOT getting redone, and why not just officially start over.......... at this point thats what appears to be happening a piece of the game at a time.

EDIT- Let me make this clear....this is NOT a complaint, but a question.... since so much is getting redone, would it be quicker to start over, instead of trying to make new changes work with old code. ESPECIALLY with the release of Vista and all the new problems it is throwing at developers.

[tshipley]

Hey Dave
I keep getting a erroe messagewhen trying to use the new patch release 25th april 2007
---------------------------
Maximum-Football
---------------------------
Run-time error '91':

Object variable or With block variable not set
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------
Please help with i really want to use these new patches but they are not working i have instll the new Direct X on my computer and it is still not working
Thanks
Thomas

[David Winter]

Hi tshipl68
 
Yes, I'm aware of that one thanks. It's the F9 bug that was brought up in the first post. And it's the one that the hot fix should address.
 
As for the delay. I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss too I'm afraid. I delieverd the update about 12 hours after the problem was first reported. But I can't hold a gun to people heads and have schedules changed just for this project. Matrix has a small staff, and they have a huge amount of work to do on other titles.
 
thanks
David

[David Winter]

The 3d engine is going to get redone...
The sim engine is going to get redone...

Whats NOT getting redone, and why not just officially start over.......... at this point thats what appears to be happening a piece of the game at a time.

Building new features based on existing code is done all the time. When needed, ripping out existing things such as the 3D engine and replacing it with new code, is also done all the time. The 3D engine doesn't have a big impact on something like pursuit code so you wouldn't throw that away to build in the new engine. Now, if later on, the code for player pursuit needs to be improved (and I can see many ways to improve it) then that would be redone. Customers have asked for a different style of quick sim engine. To make that work, the existing one needs to be pulled out and an new one built. (Removal of the existing version is trivial. Making the 3D game work as the new quick sim is that part that gets complicated.)

[Marauders]

Before I make this post, I would like to point out that I am not part of Wintervalley Software, and my post is a personal observation.
 
Maximum-Football was created first and foremost to play a live 3D game.  The sim feature is there to help owners with leagues play extra games.  It was not intended as the primary game tool.
 
The beta guys are tweaking some of the sim game stats event modifiers, as you may also, but it will not match the 3D game in features unless the same engine is used or Maximum-Football has added a completely other game to its code.  I guess David could take the time to do the latter, as it is more simple to do than a full 3D game, but it would take time away from the major emphasis of Maximum-Football, and that is 3D play.  It would also delay the former down the road, and that is the prefered method of a simmed game most of us here have expressed.
 
For leagues without a specific team owned by a single user, it is best to run a game of the week live and rotate the teams in the live game so that the teams will have close to an equal number of live and simmed games.  For leagues with a primary single user owned team, it will be up to the owner to use the features that work the best as one may.
 
As always, David will do the best he can, but there are always opportunity costs to coding one thing prior to another.
 

[Scott_WAR]

  All you have to do is look at how most people voted in the thread asking what people want done next with the game.......... a new sim engine.............. to realize that most people are using this game as a sim engine,.....not for the 3-d game. With that in mind, IF the focus has been mainly on the 3-D game, then its time to realize what the owners of this game really want and change the focus. Go look at how they voted.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1122577&mpage=1&key

[elmerlee]

My guess would be that Matrix staff has gotten smaller and smaller in the past year and they now have little if and "production" compenent. They are "re-packers".

Just check out the number of games they have "in-development" that NEVER come to life. Pure false advertising in my estimation. It is one thing to be a developer and have this happen to a game but in the case of Matrix it is constant.
It happens too many times for it to be anything reasonable.

And now David Winter, who seems to be really trying, cannot even get a patch up because is "too busy". Bull****. Looks like Matrix is dumping this product.

[redwolf1]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

  All you have to do is look at how most people voted in the thread asking what people want done next with the game.......... a new sim engine.............. to realize that most people are using this game as a sim engine,.....not for the 3-d game. With that in mind, IF the focus has been mainly on the 3-D game, then its time to realize what the owners of this game really want and change the focus. Go look at how they voted.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1122577&mpage=1&key

Scott, I believe you are partially misinterpreting this. The voting reflects a desire for the user to be able to, when simming a game, to use the game's "on-field" engine (or 3-D engine, if you want) but without the graphics (a la FBPro). The main reason is to get stats on par with, and completely and directly comparable to, non-simmed games. I don't think you can conclude that most users want to ultimately sim their games. I believe the majority are probably like me - those that want to actually coach their team's games using the "on-field" engine, and sim many or most of the rest of the teams in the league's games, but have generated stats directly comparable. That's why I voted for the new sim engine (and I am sure many did as well).

Now if this is a project that Dave is working on currently (replacing the current "sim" engine with a engine that uses the actual "on-field" engine), then it would actually be a wasted effort fixing a sim engine that is going to change and actually utilize the "on-field" engine in some manner - indeed, it would be counter-productive and cause further delay.

[garysorrell]

Im in agreement with redwolf1 on this one. I look forward to the new sim option.

I dont think that the sim options of other games are any great shakes. I cant tell you how many times a 1 loss team met me in the playoffs in Madden and I destroyed them, because they got there via the crap sim engine of that game. I think the FBpro way was ideal. And honestly, it looks to me like David will give us a similar setup with Max. The quick sim like we have now and the new sim(minus graphics)engine.

Im not criticizing anyone here either. Scott_WAR and elmerlee are absolutely within their rights as purchasers to speak up.

Im admittedly one of Davids biggest cheerleaders. This is the game ive always wanted.
However, I will admit to being a bit tired of wondering when I can relax and just start playing.
I would really like to see David at some point just say "Thats it, the game is on feature lockdown. New graphics engine, new sim engine, vista fixes...thats it"
Then squash whatever bugs are there and start looking toward an expansion/add-on, or a version 2, for whatever direction he wants to take the game in.

Im currently using 1.3.149 and plan to probably stay with that. I dont seem to have any issues that prevent me from playing the game the way I want to.

Having rambled on, let me say keep up the good work David.

[Scott_WAR]

ORIGINAL: redwolf1

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

  All you have to do is look at how most people voted in the thread asking what people want done next with the game.......... a new sim engine.............. to realize that most people are using this game as a sim engine,.....not for the 3-d game. With that in mind, IF the focus has been mainly on the 3-D game, then its time to realize what the owners of this game really want and change the focus. Go look at how they voted.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1122577&mpage=1&key

Scott, I believe you are partially misinterpreting this. The voting reflects a desire for the user to be able to, when simming a game, to use the game's "on-field" engine (or 3-D engine, if you want) but without the graphics (a la FBPro). The main reason is to get stats on par with, and completely and directly comparable to, non-simmed games. I don't think you can conclude that most users want to ultimately sim their games. I believe the majority are probably like me - those that want to actually coach their team's games using the "on-field" engine, and sim many or most of the rest of the teams in the league's games, but have generated stats directly comparable. That's why I voted for the new sim engine (and I am sure many did as well).

Now if this is a project that Dave is working on currently (replacing the current "sim" engine with a engine that uses the actual "on-field" engine), then it would actually be a wasted effort fixing a sim engine that is going to change and actually utilize the "on-field" engine in some manner - indeed, it would be counter-productive and cause further delay.

Actually, in a roundabout way thats what I am saying. Most people, at this point, want the sim engine fixed, ie.. give accurate results, based on how a 3-D game plays out. To do this the sim engine will have use subs correctl, which is what I am asking about. If the sim engine isnt going to sub players, as would happen in a played out 3-d game, then the sim engine needs work,.............. as is shown by the vote. If that is the case, which makes sense, then it is 100% true, nothing needs to be done with the current sim engine, and work needs to prgress on the updated one,.... which we really need. Just make sure it subs players................. which is what I was asking to begin with, just in the wrong way.


I think gary hit on EXACTLY what is troubling me..... I have started and stopped work on a few things, because future updates that are planned is going to change the game, and I dont want to do a lot of work just to have to start over again next update.

So yeah, at some point the game has to finalize and stop adding and changing features.

BUT- we must have certain features for online, multiplayer leagues. We need that sim engine, we need H2H play, and possibly we need GM/financials.

I for one, bought this game hoping to play football in an online league, and am waiting patiently for that to become a reality.

[David Winter]

So yeah, at some point the game has to finalize and stop adding and changing features.

BUT- we must have certain features for online, multiplayer leagues. We need that sim engine, we need H2H play, and possibly we need GM/financials.

I for one, bought this game hoping to play football in an online league, and am waiting patiently for that to become a reality

Scott

Maximum-Football is a 3D football game. The quick sim feature is not the core game play method and others have mentioned this. It's always been advertised as a 3D game for on field game play. I did not set out to build a text sim with a 3D option, I set out to build a 3D game that allows you to play with multiple rules.

Most people, at this point, want the sim engine fixed, ie.. give accurate results, based on how a 3-D game plays out.

They are two completely different games. The 3D game is based on real time game play. The game has no idea what the result of the particular play is until the play is over. The quick sim is precalculated results based on a look up table. They will always provide different results. When the quick sim feature was originally built, the it was deamed to be 'good enough' because the 3D game is the target game play style. But as you've noted, many consumers would like the quick sim game to better match the 3D game. That's fine, but to do that changes need to be made. There is a lot of work involved.

All those features you mention above are being looked into because people are asking for them, but I'm afraid they're not going to be in version 1 of the game. Online H2H play, the new simulation method being based off the 3D game, GM features, etc. are not going to be in version 1. They're simply too large an undertaking so I'm looking at them for version 2.

Some subtle changes and improvements to the quick sim feature are being investigated for the next update to version 1, but I'd like it to be understood that it's not going to be the change to the 3D game based quick sim.

thanks

[Scott_WAR]

By version 2, do you mean an entirely new game that we will need to buy? If so, I would like to make some suggestions.

[garysorrell]

All those features you mention above are being looked into because people are asking for them, but I'm afraid they're not going to be in version 1 of the game. Online H2H play, the new simulation method being based off the 3D game, GM features, etc. are not going to be in version 1. They're simply too large an undertaking so I'm looking at them for version 2.

Excellent. Thats what I was wanting to hear. This allows me to settle in and play.

[David Winter]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

By version 2, do you mean an entirely new game that we will need to buy? If so, I would like to make some suggestions.

Hi,

I'm not sure would not call it an entirely new game in that it will not use a brand new stream of source code. Very rarely do new versions of the same title start from 100% scratch.

But to your point, these features will not be a in free update.

Please post your suggestions. I go through the suggestions/wishlist category of this forum quite often .

thanks
David

[Scott_WAR]

What I have been wanting is online, multiplayer league play. Have it so that the commish sets up the league, with a file created to export to each human controlled player. If humans control Seattle, Atlanta then two files will be created, one to send to Atlantas owner, and one to send to Seattles owner. This file will only allow them to manipulate their own team, and nothing else. Using this file, and the commish's IP, the owners will connect to the commishes PC for the draft. After the draft, players may run thier own training camp, and make roster cuts, set up their depth charts, and create their playbook. Parameters will be in the league file that is created initialy. Once this is all done, all members of the league e-mail back the league/team file, the commish imports them and the game sets up week 1 games. Human controlled teams can schedule a game time. Home team hosts, visiting team connects to home teams PC via IP. The game is played (coach mode), the games records the results, and a file is exported. BOTH teams mail in their league/team files after the game, and the commish imports that into the league. AI controlled teams sim results (needs to match stats from played games).


I never was able to play any of the front page sports/football pro games, so I dont know if this is how they managed online leagues, and I am guessing they may have had an even better system than the one I envision here. If so, please steal those ideas. But, my main reason for buying this game, and any future football games is online, multiplayer league play.

[garysorrell]

Out of curiosity, I ran 5 season with a 6 team league, default 11 man playbook.
12min qtrs, CFL field.

Mainly, I wanted to see how the AI handled teams with the current sim engine.

As you can see from the pic, A few teams were perennial losers...at least over 5 seasons.

I mainly was curious if the AI could take a bad team and make it good.

[garysorrell]

Team6 was bad thru 5 seasons, Team4 was up and down. Teams 1 and 2 were good most of the time.

I will likely go thru 10 seasons, and see if Team6 can get good.

[redwolf1]

Suddenly mixed feelings now...it looks like this version of maximum football may not meet my hopes. I do appreciate all the work that is being done and has be done on the title, and can understand pushing various new features to a version 2. But at the same time I can't say that I'm not a little bit dissappointed to hear the news. I was hoping that a new sim engine (quasi 3D engine minus the graphics) would get done for this version.[:(]

I was also hoping that player breakdowns by position would get into this version (eg. LT, ROLB, etc.) - maybe they still are planned for version 1(???) - I really do hope so.

Since the new sim engine (as described above) won't be in version 1, I am really finding myself desiring subbing with the current sim engine. Without AI subs, sims are even less meaningful which translates to league play being even less meaningful (unless of course every single game by every single team in the league is played out) which translates to me as the game not being very desirable to play anymore. I'd like to be able to enjoy coaching my games within a meaningful league, rather than simply enjoying the game playing random 3-D match-ups.

Kudos for David for contining his dedication to the game [:)], it will end up being a fantastic title in the end, I'm sure...just not for me yet...

[David Winter]

I was also hoping that player breakdowns by position would get into this version (eg. LT, ROLB, etc.) - maybe they still are planned for version 1(???) - I really do hope so.

That's still planned for version 1. The work is already completed. That plan had never changed.

Please understand that the amount of work involved in these features is emense. The game has already had a number of user requested features added that were never originally intended to be there. Basically, new features at no extra cost.

Since the new sim engine (as described above) won't be in version 1, I am really finding myself desiring subbing with the current sim engine.

Even with the new engine, there's not going to be anything to see as far as subs go. There is no on screen indication as to whether or not a player was not on the field for a particular play. It's going to be a screen layout reasonably similar to what's there now. The quick sim feature was intended to rapidly generate some stats to fill in data for the games the user didn't want to play in 3D.

I really don't understand why people are saying that they can't play the game without these. The 3D game has been pretty solid for a long time. Myself and others find it a lot of fun to build plays and get on the field and play the game. The quck sim feature isn't even a feature I mention on the game's official pages.

thanks
David

[Scott_WAR]

I think its because a LOT of people wanted a replacement for FBpro 98 and its league capabilities. Along with the 3-d game. I think many people are still holding onto the hope that this game will eventually do that, which its now obvious wont happen.

  Anyway, what about my ideas above.............. I am not sure, but I suspect that what i am looking for is what a lot of people wanted................................. a way to play in a league with other people, including playing games H2H. Is that going to be a possibility in the next version?  Or maybe a Online League expansion for this game.