Axis and Oil

[willgamer]

Still doing the tutorial, but I'd like to understand this oil issue better...

Do any of the reports in the game allow the Axis player to verify that captured oil is being added to the oil pool?

Is there any kind of breakdown of where the oil comes from and how much?

Can oil usage be verified, if desired, to be correct in each situation?

[targul]

Not sure why you feel if you capture those oil fields are your problems with oil would be over.  Every nation in the war had oil shortages.  As it was what all armies ran on using it at the rate it was being used meant the refineries just could not keep up. 
 
I can complete understand your lack of oil since that is exactly the same shortage every nation was feeling.  I do not know of any nation who had all the oil they needed during the war.  So if you had such a far flung empire and so many units regardless of what you captured if you did not have your general categories also maxed I would suspect shortages.  Even with them maxed I am not sure there would be enough but you would have a better chance.

[firepowerjohan]

One thing about the oil shortage that help the game is that the bulk of forces remains the corps. Without oil restriction you would be able to have a high tech armour being your bulk unit. Imagine Axis invading USSR with only armour units, would that be realistic?

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

One thing about the oil shortage that help the game is that the bulk of forces remains the corps. Without oil restriction you would be able to have a high tech armour being your bulk unit. Imagine Axis invading USSR with only armour units, would that be realistic?

And when you play the game that way you run smack up against the manpower limitations.

I built a conservatively balanced army with a bulk of corps and a modest armor and air force. I gave up the naval war after watching every sub I built get sunk after sinking 10 transports so there was no naval drain on the oil supply. I took the middle east oil fields, but not the Caucus ones and was marginally able to sustain my army with oil, but I literally RAN OUT of manpower by the end of 1943.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

One thing about the oil shortage that help the game is that the bulk of forces remains the corps. Without oil restriction you would be able to have a high tech armour being your bulk unit. Imagine Axis invading USSR with only armour units, would that be realistic?

interesting, I didn't think it was Oil that stopped the player from building Armor units, I think cost is more importent, and Armor with out being able to upgrade it, is worthless, so again, it is cost in reseach to be able to reseach, cost as in the cost to do the upgrades (not to mention the time it takes)

plus it does not seem to stop the AI from building hordes of Armor

I do not mind the idea of Oil being a limiting factor, but I think it should be made a target, a reason for the Allies to spend the money and time and reseach to make long range bombers, to take into effect what the battle plans are

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: targul

Not sure why you feel if you capture those oil fields are your problems with oil would be over.  Every nation in the war had oil shortages.  As it was what all armies ran on using it at the rate it was being used meant the refineries just could not keep up. 

I can complete understand your lack of oil since that is exactly the same shortage every nation was feeling.  I do not know of any nation who had all the oil they needed during the war.  So if you had such a far flung empire and so many units regardless of what you captured if you did not have your general categories also maxed I would suspect shortages.  Even with them maxed I am not sure there would be enough but you would have a better chance.

you don't think that takeing some of the worlds largest Oil Fields in the world at the time, would not help the Oil drain ?

and again, the main reason the Axis had a Oil hassle in the late war, was the fact that BC and the 8th and 15th Airforces bombed them into ruble, and the Russians ground forces over ran the ones in the East

besides, based on the size of the units, I do not believe my Army was bigger then the real German Army

[Dave Ferguson]

These problems are probably down to scenario balancing issues, and the longer the scenario the more difficult this is, especially if you take into account the butterfly effect. ( a dicision you make in 1939 might make a BIG difference in 1944)
 
When you play v human the problem is even worse as casualty rates soar, so think the game is not balanced for human v human play.
 
Back to the oil issue. If you have captured the Caucasus oil fields you have won the war anyway? just sit back on the defensive and conserve resources. Keep Italy in the war and use their manpower for garrisons to block invasions. Use the panzers as a counterattack force, counterattack is far more destructive to the defender who already has a reduced effectiveness/casualties.

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

These problems are probably down to scenario balancing issues, and the longer the scenario the more difficult this is, especially if you take into account the butterfly effect. ( a dicision you make in 1939 might make a BIG difference in 1944)

When you play v human the problem is even worse as casualty rates soar, so think the game is not balanced for human v human play.

Back to the oil issue. If you have captured the Caucasus oil fields you have won the war anyway? just sit back on the defensive and conserve resources. Keep Italy in the war and use their manpower for garrisons to block invasions. Use the panzers as a counterattack force, counterattack is far more destructive to the defender who already has a reduced effectiveness/casualties.

well, just because you got the Oil Fields don't mean you won (but will concede, that if you can take and hold the Russian Oil Fields, there pretty much is no Russian left

again, I think it will depend on how you play, a US/GB heavy in Airpower, will take out anything (unless the other side is heavy in fighters, which still runs into the same Oil burn issues)

(my last game as Allies, I was running into Ge Tanks, that when I surrounded them, my best Tanks units were at a 1-11 odds if they attacked, tended to not attack, with them being out of supply, but they could be worned down with FB attacks)

(very odd war, I took out Berlin before I could do anything with Rome, and then took Rome on what I think would of been the last turn)

[TPM]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Yes, but you miss the point

if you are able to take the Major Oil fields the Axis were not able to take, and also do not let the Allied take (knock out) the Oil fields you do have, you shouldn't have trouble with lack of Oil

Well, this makes sense to me. IF you've got roughly the same amount of armor and air that the Germans did historically (don't know if that's possible to figure out in this game) in, let's say, the beginning of 1943, and you've got all those Russian oil fields in the Caucasus, you shouldn't have the same oil problems that Germany had historically. I'm not saying you shouldn't have any problems, I'm just saying there should be a difference. Wasn't that the point of Operation Blue in the first place?

[Syagrius]

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

fourteen armour!. no wonder you have oil problems, if all that lot move it is 42 oil points and another 42 if they all fight, and does that include defending[:)]

I wonder if the Rumanian wells are factored into the basic german supplies?

In my present game it is manpower that is the problem, well in the red and nearing zero[:(]

Same for me, manpower is more an issue than oil. In fall of 1944 my MP was UNDER zero. I got messages I was recruiting kids in the German army [:'(]

[targul]

Game manpower/oil make a great game balancer.  Manpower means you cant build unlimited infantry.  Oil cant build unlimited Armour.  A good balance is required.  You need to watch the different factors as you proceed. 
 
After playing the Axis AI I found this out when I first ran out of oil then manpower.  After that I started building a balanced army and watching my oil use carefully. Makes for an awesome balanced game.

[IrishGuards]

I have read all the comments, and I have even spoken occasionally.
I am still gonna wait and see how different strategies .. cause and effect ... and how they pertain to playability ...
I know these facets of the game are here to balance the game and keep guys like me from becoming in other words ...
A TANK ... [8D]
This is 1 area in the game that is huge .... and I will say again ..
Where are my Synth plants and the Austrian Oil fields ... even small amounts flowing from the start of the game have huge ramifications by .. 41 .. 42 .. and so forth ...
As I opt for an economic outlook to keep the Oil flowing I can't help wonder ..
I move a BB .. 1 hex .. 3 oil .. I move it 15 hexes .. 3 Oil .. or whatever ....
I would rather be able to supply areas of the map .. eg: N AFR .. or Norway .. with Oil so that they at least keep the pointy units I have on board in supply 5 ... Cause the way I see it right now ... My Air in N Afr is supply 3 and still using same amount of Oil to conduct Air Ops ... Nay seems right to I [X(]
I look at the red sea route and so forth .. I have no idea how many turns it takes a unit to move around the horn of africa .. BUT .. !!! I certainly hope that the Allies are being charged if they redeploy the fleet this way .. this would be mega Oil use ..
IDG

[freeboy]

Armor production.. cost is one thing.. if we want to talk about "ww2 reality look at the 41 42 tank figures.. germany simplly produced way too few.. even had they gone to a war time economy in 40, as oposed to what 43?, the steal for tanks and the need for industry for other efforts would reduce the numbers from an all armored corps army..
Oil is used as a hindrence to germany getting a quickie in this game...
one solution is folks are upset is to require lots of oil to produce armor and fleets. If the Germans had the oil in the cacauses and Mid East they still would have had enormous problems moving it.. easier to set up the factories closer to the oil! etc etc..
 
I do agree that oil on is the challenge for the germans... but it is a good challange imo

[Hard Sarge]

Well, it don't look like the AI has to worry about Oil
 
but for on map fields, Hamburg should be a major one, then Hannover would follow, and for man made, you would have Leuna works (employed some 36000 workers) and then there are the Blechhammers, nord and sud, each double the size of Leuna
 
also the Rhur had many smaller man made fuel sites (that when combined would be a major site)
 
(of course, I am thinking more along the lines of giving the Allies bombers something to target)
 
 

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Armor production.. cost is one thing.. if we want to talk about "ww2 reality look at the 41 42 tank figures.. germany simplly produced way too few.. even had they gone to a war time economy in 40, as oposed to what 43?, the steal for tanks and the need for industry for other efforts would reduce the numbers from an all armored corps army..
Oil is used as a hindrence to germany getting a quickie in this game...
one solution is folks are upset is to require lots of oil to produce armor and fleets. If the Germans had the oil in the cacauses and Mid East they still would have had enormous problems moving it.. easier to set up the factories closer to the oil! etc etc..

I do agree that oil on is the challenge for the germans... but it is a good challange imo

the trouble is mind set, if the Axis could and did take those fields, I am sure they then would of worked out how to use it

also, I am not saying the Player should build a all Tank Army, or even a heavy Tank Army

I am saying, if, I take the middle east oil fields and the Russian oil fields, I should have oil

even with what the Axis did build, they did not have Oil issues (other then standard supply, out running of such) until the Oil Sites became targets or were being captured

(as a side note, even with all the Allied Oil, the Allied Armies in France ran into lack of Oil Issues, they had it, but couldn't it to the front fast enough, lack of major port to offload at)

[Dave Ferguson]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

........but for on map fields, Hamburg should be a major one, then Hannover would follow......

??? oil fields there? news to me!

[Hard Sarge]

not sure how well this will post

working on the game EDtBTR Oil is a major target

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

........but for on map fields, Hamburg should be a major one, then Hannover would follow......

??? oil fields there? news to me!

Oil refineries

IMHO, Axis Oil and Manpower run out way too quickly. In one game, I was scraping the bottom for both in 9/41....

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

........but for on map fields, Hamburg should be a major one, then Hannover would follow......

??? oil fields there? news to me!

Oil refineries

IMHO, Axis Oil and Manpower run out way too quickly. In one game, I was scraping the bottom for both in 9/41....

true, but at this scale, I believe we are lumping all types of areas into one type, Oil with out a refinery is worthless

[targul]

Oil and populations are only two factors being argued here but part of the reason for the complaints is units are too cheap.  You could double the cost of most units and they would still be cheap.
 
I like them being cheap but if you make oil and manpower plentiful you will need to make those units much more expensive or you will unbalance the game in favor of the Axis way too much.