west front D-Day 1944

Post accounts of your memorable victories and defeats here for other wargamers to share.

Moderators: ralphtricky, JAMiAM

User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 14808
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: harding
the destruction of the German rail network was well-documented in Chester Wilmot's the struggle for Europe and was not only more extensive than the scenario represents but German repair efforts were totally swamped by ongoing bombing. I am not sure that scenario represents this.

My info was that the interdiction efforts were focused on the Seine and the Loire, and that's where I've broken the German rail net. Normandy starts off boxed off from full supply.

As to the rest of France, we do know that the II SS Panzer Corps was delivered to Normandy by rail from the Eastern Front. I'm not too sure exactly where they disembarked, but they did get there mostly by rail.

And, of course, the Allied player has the historical great air armada that he can use for bridge blowing if he desires.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
harsmith
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:37 am

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by harsmith »

Chester Wilmott,s excellent book "The Struggle for Europe" has a map on page 210 showing rail centres badly damaged or destroyed. In fact the predominant damge was done to the centres in northern France and Belgium, which not only interdicted Normandy but also Pas de Calais which helped maintain the feint of a landing there. Every bridge over the Seine between Pais and the sea was destroyed (as you have modelled). The supply was so disrupted that Cherbourg could not be adequately stockpiled with supplies.
 
In his chapter "the Battle for the Buildup", he describes only 2 trains a day being able to run the through the Paris-Orleans gap, these could not carry troops, only high value supplies. The troops had to march 150 miles from Paris.
 
Page 341 desribes the movement of 9th and 10th SS (2nd SS Pzr Corps) from Poland. they left on June 12 and arrived in Lorraine on June 16th. There the tracks had been cut and they travelled 400 miles by road! arriving around Alencon by June 25.
 
Its worth noting to that 2nd SS Panzer took nearly 3 weeks to move from southern france to Normandy, delayed by bombed railways and French Macquis.
 
 
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 14808
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: harding

Chester Wilmott,s excellent book "The Struggle for Europe" has a map on page 210 showing rail centres badly damaged or destroyed. In fact the predominant damge was done to the centres in northern France and Belgium, which not only interdicted Normandy but also Pas de Calais which helped maintain the feint of a landing there. Every bridge over the Seine between Pais and the sea was destroyed (as you have modelled). The supply was so disrupted that Cherbourg could not be adequately stockpiled with supplies.

Well, damage to the Pas de Calais area won't be felt for a long time in this scenario by which time it would have been repaired and reblown multiple times. It doesn't seem worth doing, but I might give it some consideration.
In his chapter "the Battle for the Buildup", he describes only 2 trains a day being able to run the through the Paris-Orleans gap, these could not carry troops, only high value supplies. The troops had to march 150 miles from Paris.

I really can't model rail lines that can only carry supplies.
Page 341 desribes the movement of 9th and 10th SS (2nd SS Pzr Corps) from Poland. they left on June 12 and arrived in Lorraine on June 16th. There the tracks had been cut and they travelled 400 miles by road! arriving around Alencon by June 25.

I don't know if this site is still up (edit: it still works!), but it was a source on the Germans in Normandy that I used extensively:

http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/gerob/p ... pzdiv.html

The above page had the following:

"Together with the Hohenstaufen the Frundsberg division was ordered on 12 June 1944 to transfer to Normandy. At this time these divisions were located near Lvov. Since trains were available, the first elements departed in late afternoon on the 12. On 18 June it was reported that 20 of the trains carrying the division had entered France, four of these had reached Paris. Two days later 38 trains were in the Saarbrucken - Nancy, while 13 had unloaded in Paris. On 23 June 67 trains had reached the OB West area. Of these nine had unloaded in Saarbrucken, 39 in the area around Bar-le-Duc and 21 in the Paris - Dreux area."

The page on the 9th Panzer said "Its movements to Normandy resembled those of 10th SS ZPz Div." Clearly, most troops were delivered beyond Lorraine and about a third of them even to Paris.
Its worth noting to that 2nd SS Panzer took nearly 3 weeks to move from southern france to Normandy, delayed by bombed railways and French Macquis.

They will do about the same in the scenario. They were primarily delayed by needing to perform anti-partisan actions.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
harsmith
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:37 am

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by harsmith »

Well, damage to the Pas de Calais area won't be felt for a long time in this scenario by which time it would have been repaired and reblown multiple times. It doesn't seem worth doing, but I might give it some consideration...

but the bombing across northern France severely disrupted supplies and transport to both Normandy and the Pas de Calais. it enabled the allies to achieve their purpose in Normandy without giving the game away to the Germans, as concentrating on the Seine and Loire crossings would have done. whether you choose to model it from a scenario point of view is of course up to you, particularly if you have play balance concerns (although I continue to struggle with this scenario) but it is a historical fact.

likewise to your comment about not being able to model trains carrying supplies- the point is that the German train system was so disrupted that troop movements were extremely hampered. Your website link regarding the movements of second SS Panzer Corps was very interesting but broadly correlates to what Chester Wilmot was saying albeit in more detail. note that very little of the division was able to rail all the way to Paris with a lot of at having to stop and wait for further trains on the German frontier.

none of this is meant as any criticism of the scenario. I fully accept that my inability to achieve anything like the historical progress is a reflection of my limitations as a player of this game.
User avatar
Veers
Posts: 1324
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:04 am

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by Veers »

ORIGINAL: harding
but the bombing across northern France severely disrupted supplies and transport to both Normandy and the Pas de Calais. it enabled the allies to achieve their purpose in Normandy without giving the game away to the Germans, as concentrating on the Seine and Loire crossings would have done. whether you choose to model it from a scenario point of view is of course up to you, particularly if you have play balance concerns (although I continue to struggle with this scenario) but it is a historical fact.

likewise to your comment about not being able to model trains carrying supplies- the point is that the German train system was so disrupted that troop movements were extremely hampered. Your website link regarding the movements of second SS Panzer Corps was very interesting but broadly correlates to what Chester Wilmot was saying albeit in more detail. note that very little of the division was able to rail all the way to Paris with a lot of at having to stop and wait for further trains on the German frontier.

none of this is meant as any criticism of the scenario. I fully accept that my inability to achieve anything like the historical progress is a reflection of my limitations as a player of this game.
note that the supply level, be it brought in by train, truck, bird, or superman, is likely reflected in the supply level for the Germans, more than by which rails are blown. I'd imagine Bob, being the good designer that he is, has already accounted for this, in this way.
To repeat history in a game is to be predictable.
If you wish to learn more about EA, feel free to pop over to the EA forums Europe Aflame Forums.
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 14808
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: harding
but the bombing across northern France severely disrupted supplies and transport to both Normandy and the Pas de Calais. it enabled the allies to achieve their purpose in Normandy without giving the game away to the Germans, as concentrating on the Seine and Loire crossings would have done. whether you choose to model it from a scenario point of view is of course up to you, particularly if you have play balance concerns (although I continue to struggle with this scenario) but it is a historical fact.

It may have taken the form of interdiction, rather than destruction of the rail net. That can be modeled by the players just fine with their air assets. I have to note that when you get to Market-Garden the bridges over the Rhine are still in operation. If there were other bridges blown across Northern France & the low countries I'm in the dark. From the Seine, there are no other major rivers before the Rhine. So the bridges would be smaller and harder to hit and have less impact if blown. The rail lines themselves are very difficult to damage from the air, and very easy to repair if they are.
likewise to your comment about not being able to model trains carrying supplies- the point is that the German train system was so disrupted that troop movements were extremely hampered. Your website link regarding the movements of second SS Panzer Corps was very interesting but broadly correlates to what Chester Wilmot was saying albeit in more detail. note that very little of the division was able to rail all the way to Paris with a lot of at having to stop and wait for further trains on the German frontier.

Well, it clearly shows that the rail path to Paris existed and was used for troop movements. Why the entire Corps didn't take it is not clear. It may have been based upon a desire to avoid air attacks on the trains. This is modeled in TOAW. Entrained units defend at diminished strength if interdicted, unlike units that are road bound (makes sense, since units on the road can scatter when strafed, while trains can't.) So players will have reason to debark further away too.
none of this is meant as any criticism of the scenario. I fully accept that my inability to achieve anything like the historical progress is a reflection of my limitations as a player of this game.

If you're right, you're right, regardless of anything else. I just need to be sure. The Allies routinely overestimated the impact of their air operations. So the site I listed that relied heavily on German sources is of special value, and it seemed to differ from yours.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 14808
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Veers
note that the supply level, be it brought in by train, truck, bird, or superman, is likely reflected in the supply level for the Germans, more than by which rails are blown. I'd imagine Bob, being the good designer that he is, has already accounted for this, in this way.

True, the German Force Supply Level is lower than the level the Allies will ultimately reach. And it can be further reduced by air interdiction.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
harsmith
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:37 am

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by harsmith »

The rail lines themselves are very difficult to damage from the air, and very easy to repair if they are...

actually Wilmott discusses how the allies were very disappointed with the results of trying to cut rail lines from the air in Italy. They found it was difficult to do and the lines were quickly repaired. In the prelude to D-Day they concentrated on rail marshalling yards which was much more effective. Not only do this hamper the German's ability to organise trains but it also destroyed a lot of rolling stock. It also made supplying the German trains with French coal almost impossible and so the coal for the few trains that could run needed to be brought from Germany on still more trains. The point that I am trying to make is that while the Germans could muster if you trains for special efforts, their rail capacity was extremely limited. I suspect that is why second SS Panzer Corps had to wait days at the German border. Not so much that the rail lines were cut but that trains themselves were short in number and the marshalling yards to organise them were destroyed.
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 14808
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: harding
actually Wilmott discusses how the allies were very disappointed with the results of trying to cut rail lines from the air in Italy. They found it was difficult to do and the lines were quickly repaired. In the prelude to D-Day they concentrated on rail marshalling yards which was much more effective. Not only do this hamper the German's ability to organise trains but it also destroyed a lot of rolling stock. It also made supplying the German trains with French coal almost impossible and so the coal for the few trains that could run needed to be brought from Germany on still more trains. The point that I am trying to make is that while the Germans could muster if you trains for special efforts, their rail capacity was extremely limited. I suspect that is why second SS Panzer Corps had to wait days at the German border. Not so much that the rail lines were cut but that trains themselves were short in number and the marshalling yards to organise them were destroyed.
As I suggested above, these sound like the sorts of things that are best modeled via interdiction efforts by the Allied player's air forces, rather than damage to the net itself. I might reconsider the German railcap values, somewhat. But that would need to be based upon an assumption that the Allied player was going to devote a lot of his air assets to interdiction. Unfortunately, TOAW has no event method to detect whether he does or doesn't.
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
User avatar
Curtis Lemay
Posts: 14808
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
Location: Houston, TX

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix
Curtis,

On behalf of Harding and myself (and perhaps others who have trouble with this one), is there any way to convince you to overcome your reluctance to post a detailed AAR for the first turn or two of this scenario? My experience is essentially the same as harding's, and the map you posted above shows a level of success that I can only dream about.

Well, I'll give it some consideration, ...

I've now posted just such an AAR located in this thread:

tm.asp?m=1546619
My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site
PaladinSix
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:29 pm

RE: west front D-Day 1944

Post by PaladinSix »

Thanks Curtis. I appreciate you taking the time to do this, and I'm sure others will as well. I'll read through your AAR right away and hopefully that will point me in the right direction.

PaladinSix
Post Reply

Return to “After Action Reports”