OT:Am I the only............

[USSAmerica]

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Bonds may or may not have the same problem, but there should be an * by his record unless the stuff we have been reading is proven false.

You can't put an asterisk by his record (when he sets the new record) unless he is proven to have broken the rules of Major League Baseball. Before the players and league agreed to modify their collective bargaining agreement, I believe around 2004, there was no testing for steroids...and there was no rule of MLB that prohibited it. Any steroid use before then, even if proven, may taint that player's accomplishments, but it cannot affect the records. Since 2004, there is no proof that Bonds used steroids.

Legal ramifications are a completely separate matter, but as far as MLB goes, he must be considered innocent until proven guilty. Show me the proof, and I'll lead the parade to Cooperstown to erase his name from the record books. Until then, he has to be treated with the same rights as every other US citizen. [8|]

Obviously, the court of public opinion is not dependant on any of this. [;)]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Bonds may or may not have the same problem, but there should be an * by his record unless the stuff we have been reading is proven false.

You can't put an asterisk by his record (when he sets the new record) unless he is proven to have broken the rules of Major League Baseball. Before the players and league agreed to modify their collective bargaining agreement, I believe around 2004, there was no testing for steroids...and there was no rule of MLB that prohibited it. Any steroid use before then, even if proven, may taint that player's accomplishments, but it cannot affect the records. Since 2004, there is no proof that Bonds used steroids.

Legal ramifications are a completely separate matter, but as far as MLB goes, he must be considered innocent until proven guilty. Show me the proof, and I'll lead the parade to Cooperstown to erase his name from the record books. Until then, he has to be treated with the same rights as every other US citizen. [8|]

Obviously, the court of public opinion is not dependant on any of this. [;)]

Actually, the Commisioner of Baseball can do practicly anything he wants. The Eight members of the 1919 "Black Sox" were all found innocent in court..., but that didn't stop "Kennisaw Mountain" Landis from banning them forever. The real shame about Bonds is that he was a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame BEFORE he started cheating. Apparently his ego couldn't stand someone else getting the headlines for the home run race..., so from one season to the next he blew himself up like Frankenstein's Monster with some "chemical help" and suddenly became "The Creature that Ate Baseball". He's always been a jerk, but before steroids he was also an extremely talanted player. Now he's just a jerk and a fraud...

[m10bob]

Meanwhile, Pete Rose still waits for his rightful place in the Hall of Fame.

[captskillet]

Can I get an Amen from the church!!!!! [&o]

[Terminus]

A-MEN!

No idea what I'm a-mening, but I got carried away...

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Meanwhile, Pete Rose still waits for his rightful place in the Hall of Fame.

Yea..., Rose was stupid. But that shouldn't keep him out forever and I'm with you in thinking he's paid enough of a penalty for his not-to-bright facination with gambling by now. History has shown that genius is not a prerequisite for great athletic performance...

[USSAmerica]

It is an injustice that Pete Rose is not in the Hall of Fame!

[Charbroiled]

Pete Rose is a complete and total jerk....but he should be in the Hall.

[anarchyintheuk]

Major league rule 21b is clear:

d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.


He voluntarily agreed to a lifetime ban from baseball in 1989. I'll be more than happy to hold him to that agreement. No one put a gun to his head to sign it. Trying to get out of that agreement and waiting more than 10 years to admit (after years of denying it) that he bet on baseball in order to promote sales of his book fits his nature as a scumbag. No one who has been declared permanently ineligable has ever been readmitted. Why make a special allowance for this weasel?

And yes, Hank Aaron is still king.

[captskillet]

Well if they are gonna let someone off the hook and in the Hall its got to be Shoeless Joe Jackson.............say it aint so Joe!!!! [;)]

[Coach Z]

I agree Captain!
Shoeless Joe 1st!
 

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Major league rule 21b is clear:

d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

And yes, Hank Aaron is still king.

The rule was written to prevent the appearance of impropriety. Rose is stupid, and an inveterate gambler..., but no one has ever found any evidence that he bet against his own team..., or tried to throw a game. Joe Jackson does seem to have taken money to throw the 1919 series---even if his numbers show that whomever paid him didn't get his money's worth. Both are sad cases..., but I'd have to say the case is stronger against Jackson even if he probbly was a better human being.

Hank Aaron was and is both a g4entleman and one of the greatest to ever play the game..., but "The Babe" is the KING. No one compares to his lifetime stats as BOTH a Pitcher and a hitter...., and he did it on Hot Dogs and Beer.

[Mark VII]

Some think that once Rose moves on to the next reality, the Commish may allow him to be voted on.

[anarchyintheuk]

Why a rule is written is less important that what a rule says, especially if there is no legislative history as in law that may provide the reasononing behind it. I would argue that a lifetime ban from baseball (which Rose agreed to) prevents the appearance of impropriety.

They found that he bet on his team, it's irrelevant whether he bet against them according to the language of 21b(d).

I don't have any opinion on the Babe Ruth: Home Run King or Fat Tub of Goo debate other than Aaron has the most hrs excluding roids but including pork products. And yeah, I always forget how good of a pitcher Ruth was.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

He voluntarily agreed to a lifetime ban from baseball in 1989. I'll be more than happy to hold him to that agreement. No one put a gun to his head to sign it. Trying to get out of that agreement and waiting more than 10 years to admit (after years of denying it) that he bet on baseball in order to promote sales of his book fits his nature as a scumbag. No one who has been declared permanently ineligable has ever been readmitted. Why make a special allowance for this weasel?

And yes, Hank Aaron is still king.

Maybe they need a special section in the hall of fame for those who would have been inducted for the quality of their play, but got banned due to something they did off the field. A hall of shame of sorts.

Bill

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Why a rule is written is less important that what a rule says...

Disagree there. The reason is the whole point of any rule. Far from suggesting that rules means nothing, I'm pointing out that rules are meant to serve a purpose, and we should focus on serving the purpose, not on serving the rule itself when it turns out that the rule is off target for a situation. All rules have limitations in how well they can serve a purpose.

As far as Rose goes: he clearly did it, he admitted it, and he agreed to a lifetime ban. One, two, three strikes you're out!

[Bombsight]

So what is the ruckus all about? Bonds still needs 118 home runs to catch Sadaharu Oh!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Whit

So what is the ruckus all about? Bonds still needs 118 home runs to catch Sadaharu Oh!

Interesting point. With the splash current Japanese Players are making over here, Oh's record is starting to seem more valid..., though someone is bound to point out that the Parks were smaller and the calibre of player less consistantly good when he played. Shame he wasn't able to spend a few years with a Major League Club over here to validate or invalidate his "Professional" record....

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: captskillet

Can I get an Amen from the church!!!!! [&o]

Amen and I will predict it is really only a matter of time.

I can't really get into career total records. It is so very dependent on how long a person stays healthy, who they play for etc. I prefer the single season records.

[Sonny II]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


......................

They are also used by musicians, etc. for "stage fright". Who knows, in a few years maybe we'll see musicians have to pee in a cup before a performance!! [X(] [:'(]

Didn't Jim Morrison already do that?[:D]