MacAurthur

[mdiehl]

"Expecting it to bow and scape and what-not in the same way is the height of cultural arrogance and ignorance, IMO."

It is the height of mendacity, arrogance, and evasion to assert that criticising the routine, systematic, and institutionalized brutality of the Japanese Empire amounts to a problem of cultural relativism. And your attempts to finger the Allies for your nation's contemptable behavior are invidious. Individuals like you make me very happy that the US insisted on *Unconditional* surrender.

You are transparent, Sir, and you have less credibility than a common toothpaste commercial.

[Raverdave]

Originally posted by Ranger-75




to RaverDave:
I've noticed LOTS of Aussies at CENTCOM in recent months. Glad to have your help.

No worrys mate, we are only a small fish in world terms and as such have little to offer, but what little we do have is always there for our allies.

[rhohltjr]

Originally posted by tohoku


...
That's one of the most awful peices of rationalisation I've heard in a long time. They were dropped for three reasons. To see what they did to people, to scare the Russians and to prompt the Japanese to surrender.

...
But, as I said way back near the start of the thread, the US isn't a country that is willing to acknowledge errors in the way it demands other countries do, is it? Bush is proving that yet again with his equally stupid, "You're either with us or against us" position viz terrorism.

tohoku
YMMV

Tohoku, I think they already knew what would happen to people when the bombs went off, they did tests. To scare the (then) Soviets, perhaps that did happen higher up in the chain of command. "...to prompt the Japanese to surrender." Every veteran I speak to here, every common rank and file veteran grunt, sailor or flyer says the same thing when I've talked to them. The bombs saved their lives. They were convinced they would have died in the preinvasion and invasions. My own father said the same thing.

What brought you here to this game/thread? Have you played PacWar or other WWII games? I enjoy reading your posts and I respect your opinions and your thousands of years of national
history and traditions.

As far as Bush and the war on terrorism. I am glad that Japan and the US and others are ALLIES this time around. How many
innocent Japanese tourists were murdered in the WTC attack?
Quite a few as I recall.

Oh yeah, this thread was about MacAurthor(?) so...I have to side with the ones that dislike him.

Keep it coming, Tohoku.

[ratster]

Perhaps the Japanese constitution is an "apology" of sorts.

The Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.

Anyway, this thread should probably be moved...

[tohoku]

Originally posted by mdiehl
"Expecting it to bow and scape and what-not in the same way is the height of cultural arrogance and ignorance, IMO."

It is the height of mendacity, arrogance, and evasion to assert that criticising the routine, systematic, and institutionalized brutality of the Japanese Empire amounts to a problem of cultural relativism. And your attempts to finger the Allies for your nation's contemptable behavior are invidious. Individuals like you make me very happy that the US insisted on *Unconditional* surrender.

You are transparent, Sir, and you have less credibility than a common toothpaste commercial.

Please point out the evidence that all the things mentioned during this thread were 'routine, systematic and institutionalised' as a function of the nation-state of Japan as you claim. And when I say evidence, I mean primary source documentation, not interperative conclusion of other.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: you, mdiehl, have consistently mis-represented what I have been writing.

If you are so bound up in anger and hatred that you can't cope with what I have actually been saying (instead of what you constantly accuse me of) then why not just killfile me?

I'm saddened that you see an honest difference of opinion as duplicity. I have tried to present my beliefs and views of history as honestly, accurately and well as I can. But as with other people, they are no more than views.

I hope you find whatever it is that open your heart to people of differing views.



tohoku
YMMV

[byron13]

Why move the thread? Let's just rename it "Post War Revisionism."

Okay Tohoku, we may have digressed. Please state in one relatively short paragraph what your point is.

[mdiehl]

The "Rape of Nanking" lasted for over seven weeks. Tokyo newspapers published photographs of Japanese soldiers drilling at bayonet practice using living humans as targets. One newspaper published a celebratory account under the headline "The Contest Continues" (IIRC), describing a beheading contest between two Japanese officer who raced to be the first to slay 100 civilians. Chinese employees of Japanese-owned photography shops smuggled out copies of "souvenir" photographs taken by IJA troops of women bound, nude, to chairs and gang raped for *weeks.* There are credible accounts of Japanese soldiers forcing Chinese men to rape their daughters in view of the rest of their families in lieu of executing the families.

The situtation was so horrid that the international "Protection Zone" to which many Chinese fled was started by a local German doctor and highly-placed member of the Nazi Party. Japanese troops dropped placards into the Protection Zone encouraging the Chinese to come out, and those who believed the placards were ill-used to say the least.

One could name *numerous* examples of similar ill use of *civilians.* The construction corps contingent from Wake Island comes to mind: executed prior to American reconquest. POW treatment was similarly inexcusable.

Before you voice again the insipid proposition that my criticism is a product of ethnocentrism, let us be clear about what is meant by "suspend disbelief" and "cultural relativism." To "suspend disbelief" roughly means to try to come to terms with really different behavior by understanding it on its own terms. To do so routinely embraces the philosophy of cultural relativism. It is the cure for all manner of biases that are accurately labelled "Judaeo-Christian ethnocentrism." (Your invocation of Judaeo-Christian ethnocentrism is mendacious by comparison.)

It is valid to point out, for example, that if a young occidental Christian male looks at high-elevation Tibetan fraternal polyandry and reacts with abhorrance, it is probably a genuine case of Judaeo-Christian moral presumption leading one to miss the underlying causes or reasons for the practice of fraternal polyandry.

But comparing that sort of ethnic bias with criticisms of Japan's abuses is invidious. I will point out (having taken only one course in Japanese history) that nothing in the celebrated accounts of the Samurai tradition extolls the virtues of executing or abusing civilians. The Japanese soldiers' treatment of civilians *everywhere* ran contrary to Japan's own cultural traditions prior to the war.

***So even judging Japanese by their own standards, the aforementioned atrocities are appalling.***

Japan's soldiers knew at the time that they committed these crimes that they were wrong by everybody's standards, including their own. They were simply so racist and genocidal that they did not care, and they were so arrogant that they thought they'd never get caught.

[rhohltjr]

Originally posted by mdiehl


One could name *numerous* examples of similar ill use of *civilians.* The construction corps contingent from Wake Island comes to mind: executed prior to American reconquest. POW treatment was similarly inexcusable.

Mdiehl, Do you know if the Japanese Commander at Wake survived the war and if so was he ever tried?


"insipid proposition,
cultural relativism,
Judaeo-Christian ethnocentrism,
occidental Christian,
Tibetan fraternal polyandry.
invidious":eek:
Must...get... better dictionary... Translating making head hurt!!:eek:

Nevertheless, well said.

Thanks to all, this is very enlightening.

[tohoku]

Originally posted by rhohltjr
What brought you here to this game/thread? Have you played PacWar or other WWII games?

I play PacWar (although not the Matrix version, which I've been unable to get to run). I've also, with some friends, rewritten the truly awful AI the original uses, replacing it with a much more powerful AI. I'm messing about with Steel Panthers , but so far aren't enjoying it much.




tohoku
YMMV

[tohoku]

Originally posted by mdiehl
The "Rape of Nanking" lasted for over seven weeks.

Source?

Tokyo newspapers published photographs of Japanese soldiers drilling at bayonet practice using living humans as targets.

And? Japanese soldiers convicted of crimes against the military code or those convicted of category 2 crimes within Japan faced the same thing. In many cases it would probably count as a war crime. In some it may not. Just like the act of beheading Allied airmen - many times a crime, sometimes not.

One newspaper published a celebratory account under the headline "The Contest Continues" (IIRC), describing a beheading contest between two Japanese officer who raced to be the first to slay 100 civilians. Chinese employees of Japanese-owned photography shops smuggled out copies of "souvenir" photographs taken by IJA troops of women bound, nude, to chairs and gang raped for *weeks.* There are credible accounts of Japanese soldiers forcing Chinese men to rape their daughters in view of the rest of their families in lieu of executing the families.

Yes. I haven't said these things didn't happen, although you don't, yet again, bother with quoting a primary researched source. In fact, most of the best research on the event is in Japanese, although you, seem to want to deny that the Japanese have any knowledge or concern about it at all.

Why do you pick out this event? Because it was one of the worst and largest? Fair enough, it was. I've said as much in several posts. But what are you doing with the rest of your posts? You're trying to paint a picture of guilt and action that is not supported by *facts*.

I've agreed with you that many bad things happened and that many Japanese have not faced up to it or even now really understand. But I don't try and paint a picture that is worse than it is. I try to understand what the actual case was.

*You*, however, seem very determined to *only* pick out the very worst events you can find, condemn them from *your* modern perspective and then imply (if not outrightly state) that those worst events are representative.

Look at how you respond when I point out that other countries military are lso guilty of war crimes on mass scales - the example I keep giving and that you keeping ignoring completly of the ongoing habit of rape by soldiers of the US 1st Army in Europe.

Have I jumped up and down (as you do above and below) and tried suggesting that *because* the US military forces did nothing to preventor even curtail it the rapes *must* count as tacit *approval* by US military forces and, hence, the government of the USA? No. I didn't. Why? Because as I've said several times, I am very careful about ascribing blame when it comes to matters of motivation, something that you, however, seem to have no problem with: if you want to blame the nation of Japan then show a clear, formal link (and quote primary research sources while doing it).


I'm somewhat at a loss; I've tried explaining my position to you. I've tried quoting examples and sources to find them that you should be able to get readily. I've tried to take the time to point out which of the examples you trumpet are ones I agree are valid and which I think aren't, and why I think that. All you keep doing is increasingly-shrilly repeating your position: "look at X, it *must* mean Y".

Even when I've given examples that directly show you are mistaken in some of your claims you just ignore those points. Why are you so angry about having only one point of view accepted?

One could name *numerous* examples of similar ill use of *civilians.* The construction corps contingent from Wake Island comes to mind: executed prior to American reconquest. POW treatment was similarly inexcusable.

Inexcusable? Who is the one doing the standard setting for what is excusable? You? Me?

Before you voice again the insipid proposition that my criticism is a product of ethnocentrism,

Does it count as insipid if it is true? To declare it insipid is to pass moral judgement: who are you and what are your qualifications to comment on my position?

In *your* case, I honestly don't think you can cope differing points of view.

But comparing that sort of ethnic bias with criticisms of Japan's abuses is invidious.

And here you are doing it *again*!! You are making a blanket declaration about things. Can you not understand what it is I have been saying? Do you need someone other than me to explain it to you?

Read this carefully:

I am *not* saying Japan is without blame.

I am, and have been, I thought (anyone?), saying that *some* things Japan and/or the Japanese are often accused of are not fair accusations, while there are other things it isn't accused of that it very much, IMHO, should be. I think the same goes for other countries too. I am not linking blame or lack of blame with those two ideas, so, please, stop trying to accuse me of that too, mdiehl.

I will point out (having taken only one course in Japanese history) that nothing in the celebrated accounts of the Samurai tradition extolls the virtues of executing or abusing civilians.

<sigh>

Are you saying that having done just one course therefore makes you knowledgable about this, or that one course is an admission that you don't know very much at all? I can't tell which inference I am supposed to take here.

Bushido, assuming you're talking about the classical code and not the restoration military variation on it (go on, stun me with your knowledge of Japanese culture and how the two thngs are different, mdiehl), does indeed not extoll the excution or abuse of civilians as a virtue. By the same token, however, it doesn't condemn it either.

But what *exactly* do you mean by civilian? In the classical period it is rather hard to point to what we, today, would all a "civilian". After all, everyone had to belong to one class or another and they all had particular rights and obligations. The closest to "civilian" in the classical society (taking the modern idea of what it means) is the samurai class itself. But that would make your point.... what? Uneducated? Moot? Saddening?

The Japanese soldiers' treatment of civilians *everywhere* ran contrary to Japan's own cultural traditions prior to the war.

***So even judging Japanese by their own standards, the aforementioned atrocities are appalling.***

You make that statement on the basis of *one* course on Japanese history?! And you accuse *me* of arrogance?!

Japan's soldiers knew at the time that they committed these crimes that they were wrong by everybody's standards, including their own. They were simply so racist and genocidal that they did not care, and they were so arrogant that they thought they'd never get caught.

More blanket statements and gross generalisations from you! It's so much *easier* to condemn when your interlocutor doesn't resort to the same tactics, isn't it, mdiehl? Even easier still when you just ignore any replies or points that might treaten the point of view you want to push, eh? Shame I'm not saying what you keep accusing me of though. Oh, well, I doubt that'll bother you much.


Enjoy your next rant. I won't bother with you any further.




tohoku
YMMV

[rhohltjr]

Originally posted by tohoku


rewritten the truly awful AI the original uses, replacing it with a much more powerful AI.

tohoku
YMMV

Hmmm. Matrix did tweak the AI for their release, made it somewhat more aggressive. You might have had a real global PacWar fan base with your souped up AI tohoku. Too bad we find out about this the day UV goes gold.

[mdiehl]

"Shame I'm not saying what you keep accusing me of though. Oh, well, I doubt that'll bother you much."

Tohuku

Look. A defense is a defense even if you dress it up with plausible deniability. I'll backtrack a little and retract, with apologies, the word "mendacious." Clearly you are viewing this from a very different POV.

I'm honest about what I know about Japan. So my knowledge is limited. Tough luck buddy. I know enough to know that by Japanese contemprary standards much that happened was recognizably dishonorable. Perhaps that is why in the las 4 weeks of the war, Japanese prison guards in Japan suddenly became very nice to their Allied prisoners. Just speculation of course, but knowing that you are about to "reap the whirlwind" does tend to change one's behavior.

You attributing all forms of criticism to Jadaeo-Christian ethnocentrism sounds to me like you do not know any Juadaeo-Christians. It also sounds too me like you've borrowed some phrase from an elementary anthropology textbook and misapplied it. I'd know. I'm a PhD anthropologist and a pretty *fxxking* good one, and I know how to suspend disbelief. Better than you maybe, but who knows. And I know that writing off criticism of Japan's war record as "western bias" or some such synonym does not fall within the realm of suspension of disbelief or of cultural relatvism. You sound to me like some KKK apologist saying "slavery wasn't so bad..."

You keep returning to the notion of questioning events that are pretty well documented. And arguing about the definition of what is a "civilian" in the context of executions (even the relatively quick kind such as the folks at Wake Island were subjected to) seems to miss the point. They weren't at any point armed and they carried papers and identification from the construction company for whom they worked at the time of the Japanese occupation of Wake. It's a war crime straight up. Proper international conduct at the time required interment or repatriation. Not beheadings.

As to the rest. The mostr recent thing I'm reading on Nanking is Iris Chang's book "The Rape of Nanking." It's a peer-reviewed book by a credible press, and she cites her sources. There are photographs of the newspaper headlines. Samples of Japanese souvenir photographs and the like. Since I don't read Japanese it is admittedly possible that she made up whatever interpretation of the Kanji she wanted, but I suspect the peer reviewers would have noticed. Therein you can find all the proper references to the contemporary newspapers. The rape of Nanking is the best example because it is very well documented that the Army aided and abetted: the leaflet campaign, for example, that urged Chinese to return to their homes so that they could be rounded up and killed. Conservative estimates put the dead in Nanking at a absolute minimum of 100,000. Claims go as high as a half a million. This scale of genocide does not happen when a handful NCOs go on a drunken spree. It was organized and sanctinoed by the army.

The US military did not organize rapes by the US 1st division in Germany in WW1. That these occurred is reprehensible. The difference is that Japanese atrocities were organized by the Japanese army. The "Kwai River Bridge" treatment of POWs was an atrocity. I can't imagine that you will contend that it was just a bunch of local Japanese officers acting on their own who came up with the idea of using POWs for slave labor.

But all that is moot. With or without US crimes I'd still stand here and say that Japan owes China, the PI, and Korea an official, formal apology on behalf of all Japanese and the nation of Japan. It ought to be delivered by the PM and the Emperor.

And, by the way, as to the "killfile me" remark. I'm not letting you off that easy. Anytime you say in a public forum things that attempt to blunt, mute or mitigate criticism of Japanese war crimes I'm gonna jump on you. Because I can and will.

A stream of unanswered falsehoods can still erode the stoniest truths.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

Well, guys, you should move this to the Art of War Forum, there we have plenty of this posts....

Greetings

Adnan M.

[sven]

Originally posted by Von Rom

I admire your dad's devotion to duty and his part in the war, but what he and so many other soldiers suffered could have been alleviated in great part by massive B-52 bombing raids. . .

B52 raids in the early 50s?

[screamer]

LET GENERAAL TER POORTEN BE IN CHARGE should be posseble to put ANY allied general there. at least in a pacwar game of mine he ended up with 1naval,7air,8land,6agrression great general but restricted to abda