MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Froonp »

If Konstantinovsk (Vanino) is too small to be a city, adding Komsomolsk would be the best Idea. I can place it 4 hexes West Northwest of Konstantinovsk, just north of the lone swamp hex, and then change the river so that Komsomolsk is on the left bank.
It is the best solution, because it adds no rails, and place the city 4 hexes from Konstantinovsk, thus putting it in supply only in clear weather impulses, exactly as it is in WiF FE.

Do you agree Steve ?
Here about this suggestion, here is how it would look.
I like it very much because it elegantly puts back Konstantinovsk in its WiF FE supply state, that is supplied only on clear weather impulses.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

Well, I like both the BAM and the Komsomolsk additions. Let's see what other people have to say.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Neilster »

From wikipedia...

The route of the present-day BAM was first considered in the 1880s as an option for the eastern section of the Trans-Siberian railway.

The section from Tayshet to Bratsk was built in the 1930s. Most of the Far Eastern section was built during the years of 1944-1946, mainly by gulag prisoners, including German and Japanese prisoners of war, of whom possibly as many as 150,000 died.[citation needed] In 1953, following Stalin's death, virtually all construction work on the BAM stopped and the line was abandoned to the elements for more than twenty years.


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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Neilster
From wikipedia...

The route of the present-day BAM was first considered in the 1880s as an option for the eastern section of the Trans-Siberian railway.

The section from Tayshet to Bratsk was built in the 1930s. Most of the Far Eastern section was built during the years of 1944-1946, mainly by gulag prisoners, including German and Japanese prisoners of war, of whom possibly as many as 150,000 died.[citation needed] In 1953, following Stalin's death, virtually all construction work on the BAM stopped and the line was abandoned to the elements for more than twenty years.


Cheers, Neilster
The Tayshet to Bratsk railway is the one depicted (black line) in post #20.
This Wikipedia article is what informed me about the BAM too.
I tried to google more information about its state of construction in 1939 & 1945 without finding more.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Neilster »

By the looks of that article, its status on the post #20 map is probably right for, say, 1939.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by trees trees »

Ok, how would the Russians get diesel fuel and torpedoes to a new base on the Pacific after losing Vladivostok? By donkey-cart? Siberia would be a logistical nightmare for military forces. Logistics are already oversimplified in WiF, they shouldn't get any easier.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: trees trees
Ok, how would the Russians get diesel fuel and torpedoes to a new base on the Pacific after losing Vladivostok? By donkey-cart? Siberia would be a logistical nightmare for military forces. Logistics are already oversimplified in WiF, they shouldn't get any easier.

In WiF FE, Konstantinovsk is in supply from Khabarovsk (see map from post #1), so donkey carts or not, the WiF FE designer estimated that torpedoes and fuel could be gathered at Khabarovsk to supply ships in Konstantinovsk.

In MWiF, we are only trying to get this right back as it is in WiF FE, nothing is any easier. The only difference is that, to keep the Geography right in the map, we leave Konstantinovsk and Khabarovsk at their real places, and we add a third city, Komsomolsk, that takes the role of Khabarovsk as for Konstantinovsk's supply.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by wfzimmerman »

ORIGINAL: trees trees

Ok, how would the Russians get diesel fuel and torpedoes to a new base on the Pacific after losing Vladivostok? By donkey-cart? Siberia would be a logistical nightmare for military forces. Logistics are already oversimplified in WiF, they shouldn't get any easier.


Hezbollah seems to have done pretty well with donkey carts! It would be a mistake to underestimate what the Soviets could have done with mass quantities of prison labor in a situation of desperation.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by marcuswatney »

Post 21: Since that post dates back to September 2006, perhaps the incorrect names around Sakhalin have already been corrected, but here goes...
 
Konstantinovsk = Sovietskya Gavan, rendered as Port Soviet on my 1942 map
Alexandrovsk is on the wrong side of the water!  It should be 2W, where the river comes closest to the sea.  The Sakhalin port is Dui.
 
I can confirm that it was the intent of the Soviets to withdraw their Far Eastern fleet to Sovietskya Gavan in the event of a Japanese attack, so they must have made some logistical preparations.  The real problem of course is that it is ice-bound for most of the year.  Vladivostok doesn't mean 'Jewel of the East' for nothing!
 
Interesting historical fact: the USSR had most of its submarine fleet based at Vladivostok.  Now that must have been a good deterrent to the Strike North faction if ever there was one!
 
The resource in northern Manchuria (presently at Tsitsihar) represents the northwestern Manchurian gold fields.  Could we move it northwest along the rail-line into the mountains where it belongs?
 
 
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Post 21: Since that post dates back to September 2006, perhaps the incorrect names around Sakhalin have already been corrected, but here goes...
I've uploaded 3 screenshots to our FTP, for Steve to post them here to get you updated with recent screenshots of this place.
Konstantinovsk = Sovietskya Gavan, rendered as Port Soviet on my 1942 map
Already changed. Konstantinovsk was nowhere to be found.
Alexandrovsk is on the wrong side of the water!  It should be 2W, where the river comes closest to the sea.  The Sakhalin port is Dui.
I disagree. Alexandrovsk is placed here (West Coast of Sakhalin) on my Look at the World Atlas (1944) and on the WiF FE maps. You can also see that on Google Earth.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

3 screen shots by Patrice.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

#2

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

3rd and last in series of screen shots by Patrice.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
The resource in northern Manchuria (presently at Tsitsihar) represents the northwestern Manchurian gold fields.  Could we move it northwest along the rail-line into the mountains where it belongs?
I believe that if it was that, then t would have been in the mountains on the WiF FE maps too.

About this area of the world, I'd be interested in your view of the Khabarovsk - Komsomolsk railway.
Do you believe that it should be present on our map ? My look at the world 1944 atlas has it existing, but I belive that it was added during the war.
This is something that I kept in my "to do" list, pending.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Mziln »

Konstantinovsk is a very small town in the Ukraine on the Don river.

Sovietskya Gavan is a town (2002 Population: 30,480).

Vanino is a town to the North of Sovietskya Gavan. Settlements are connected with Sovetskaya Gavan and Vanino by highways.

Vanino ITL of Dalstroi is the name of a Gulag camp.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Peter Stauffenberg »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I believe that if it was that, then t would have been in the mountains on the WiF FE maps too.

About this area of the world, I'd be interested in your view of the Khabarovsk - Komsomolsk railway.
Do you believe that it should be present on our map ? My look at the world 1944 atlas has it existing, but I belive that it was added during the war.
This is something that I kept in my "to do" list, pending.

Look at this link:
http://www.transsib.ru/Eng/city-dvost.htm

Read the section about the history of Khabarovsk:
It was founded in 1858 as military post Khhabarovka (was named in honour of Russian explorer E. P. Khabarov). Incorporated from 1880, administrctive centre of Primorskaya region, from 1884 of Priamurskoe general province. From 1893 it's called Khabarovsk. In 1872 river port was built. In 1897 Khabarovsk was connected with Vladivostok by railway. In the end of the 19th c. in Khabarovsk fur trade carried out. In 1902 military plant "Arsenal" (now "Daldizel") was founded. In 1908 the base of Amur fleet was created. In the beginning of the 20th c. Khabarovsk was the large trade centre in Far East. In 1916 railway bridge over Amur connecting Khabrovsk by railway with East Siberia was built. From 1926 the centre of Far East, from 1938 of Khabarovsk territory. In 1940 it was connected by railway via Volochaevka station with Komsomolsk-on-Amur

The last sentence says that Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk were connected by railway in 1940. Is that early enough to add the railway on the map? I read one other article about the development of the railway in the Russian Far East. The article said that the Russians put a lot of effort on railroad building during the 30's and early 40's in this area because they expected war with Japan.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
The last sentence say that Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk were connected by railway in 1940. Is that early enough to add the railway on the map? I read one other article about the development of the railway in the Russian Far East. The article said that the Russians put a lot of effort on railroad building during the 30's and early 40's in this area because they expected war with Japan.
Well, pretty tempting to add this railway. My Look at the World Atlas, in a map dated 1943 shows it too.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
ORIGINAL: Froonp
I believe that if it was that, then t would have been in the mountains on the WiF FE maps too.

About this area of the world, I'd be interested in your view of the Khabarovsk - Komsomolsk railway.
Do you believe that it should be present on our map ? My look at the world 1944 atlas has it existing, but I belive that it was added during the war.
This is something that I kept in my "to do" list, pending.

Look at this link:
http://www.transsib.ru/Eng/city-dvost.htm

Read the section about the history of Khabarovsk:
It was founded in 1858 as military post Khhabarovka (was named in honour of Russian explorer E. P. Khabarov). Incorporated from 1880, administrctive centre of Primorskaya region, from 1884 of Priamurskoe general province. From 1893 it's called Khabarovsk. In 1872 river port was built. In 1897 Khabarovsk was connected with Vladivostok by railway. In the end of the 19th c. in Khabarovsk fur trade carried out. In 1902 military plant "Arsenal" (now "Daldizel") was founded. In 1908 the base of Amur fleet was created. In the beginning of the 20th c. Khabarovsk was the large trade centre in Far East. In 1916 railway bridge over Amur connecting Khabrovsk by railway with East Siberia was built. From 1926 the centre of Far East, from 1938 of Khabarovsk territory. In 1940 it was connected by railway via Volochaevka station with Komsomolsk-on-Amur

The last sentence says that Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk were connected by railway in 1940. Is that early enough to add the railway on the map? I read one other article about the development of the railway in the Russian Far East. The article said that the Russians put a lot of effort on railroad building during the 30's and early 40's in this area because they expected war with Japan.
1940 seems like it is ok to add the railroad. If Japan and the USSR go to war in 1939 or 1940, then it is premature, but after that it is correct. I vote to add it.
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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by marcuswatney »

Unfortunately, on my 1936/42 large scale map of the region, Kharbarovsk is right up at the top of the page, so I cannot make out if there was then a rail-line to Komsomolsk.  Somewhere I have a military history atlas devoted to the USSR, but I don't know where it is at the moment.  A rail-line to Komsomolsk seems familiar though.

Toyohara is in fact an inland town 1NE of its present position on the map.  The name of the port was Otomari, rendered Odomari in my atlas.  Is there any evidence that this port was ice-bound?  Since it is in a different weather zone from the others, it seems unlikely.  There was even a rail-line coming out of Odomari, going 1NE then 1NW, but it went no further than that one-hex neck of Karafuto.

Patrice, it looks like your atlas and mine are at war over Alexandrovsk.  Mine definitely shows it 2W, with the Sakhalin port identified as Dui.

The railway at the extreme northeast of Korea is wrong.  The ports of Seishin and Rashin (the latter right up at the Soviet border) were extremely important to the Japanese as the most direct route from the home islands to Harbin and Kirin.  That is why they fought the Soviets for Changkufeng in 1939.  At the point where the rail-line goes inland, delete that spur that continues along the coast.  Add a spur from Rashin to 1NW to connect with the existing rail-line.  Seishin and Rashin were small ports, but together I think they should be recognised with a small port symbol at Rashin, adjacent to the border.  They were the main route for reinforcements into Manchuria.

If you want to be really accurate, the rail-line from Rashin hugged the border and looped around on itself before joining the existing rail-line.  A spur crossed the border into Manchuria 2NW from Rashin, then turned 1SW, so that there was a strange box of rail-lines there (presumably a military assembly area).

From 2NW of Rashin (Rashin being the most northeastern coastal hex of Korea) a rail-line went due north up the valley (on the map the valley is shown running NE, but try and keep the rail-line as close to north as possible as it heads through the two plain hexes) and continued across the Sungari to end 60km from the border, swinging east a little and then back, on its way.

The spur you have marked 3NW Vladivostok was much shorter than shown.  There was a more important rail-line nearby.  It left the line to the Sungari at the northern end of the valley and went straight towards the Russian resource, following the lake shore about 30km north.  It reached the bank of the Ussuri River but did not cross.

The map shows the northern Titsihar-Harbin box correctly, but there is a rail-line heading north from the apex, definitely 1NE (and possibly 2NE - goes off the top of the page).  Additionally, the spur shown at the word Nen also goes off the page towards Blagoveshchensk.  All these rail-lines look like they were built for purely military reasons, to speed deployment to the border and facilitate supply.

The Russians even have a spur following the west coast of Lake Hanka, provocatively right up to the border and no further!

Perhaps you were aware of all these rail-lines, but decided not to include them for game-balance reasons.

The Lesser Kinghans do not qualify for mountain status, but I suppose we are stuck with them because they were in the original game.

Manchukuo:  It is not technically correct to refer to Manchukuo as Manchuria.  Manchukuo consisted of Manchuria plus the Chinese province of Jehol.  I would recommend changing the name to Manchukuo.

The capital of Manchukuo was moved from Harbin to Changchun, which the Japanese then renamed Hsinking.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - Russia - Siberia, Manchuria, Korea

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Toyohara is in fact an inland town 1NE of its present position on the map.  The name of the port was Otomari, rendered Odomari in my atlas.  Is there any evidence that this port was ice-bound?  Since it is in a different weather zone from the others, it seems unlikely.  There was even a rail-line coming out of Odomari, going 1NE then 1NW, but it went no further than that one-hex neck of Karafuto.
I agree it is inland, but it is not that far inland. Maybe Toyohara was bigger than Otomari, and hence gave its name to the place ?
Patrice, it looks like your atlas and mine are at war over Alexandrovsk.  Mine definitely shows it 2W, with the Sakhalin port identified as Dui.
Yes, but look at Google Earth. It shows it on the postion my atlas indicates. 50° 54' N, 142° 9' E.
The railway at the extreme northeast of Korea is wrong.  The ports of Seishin and Rashin (the latter right up at the Soviet border) were extremely important to the Japanese as the most direct route from the home islands to Harbin and Kirin.  That is why they fought the Soviets for Changkufeng in 1939.  At the point where the rail-line goes inland, delete that spur that continues along the coast.  Add a spur from Rashin to 1NW to connect with the existing rail-line.  Seishin and Rashin were small ports, but together I think they should be recognised with a small port symbol at Rashin, adjacent to the border.  They were the main route for reinforcements into Manchuria.
Agreed for the railway, but not for the Port. No port is needed to unload units. Either AMPH are used, and in basic game any unit can land on any hex. We try to limit the extra ports compared to the WiF FE maps, as the ports have significant advantages.
From 2NW of Rashin (Rashin being the most northeastern coastal hex of Korea) a rail-line went due north up the valley (on the map the valley is shown running NE, but try and keep the rail-line as close to north as possible as it heads through the two plain hexes) and continued across the Sungari to end 60km from the border, swinging east a little and then back, on its way.

The spur you have marked 3NW Vladivostok was much shorter than shown.  There was a more important rail-line nearby.  It left the line to the Sungari at the northern end of the valley and went straight towards the Russian resource, following the lake shore about 30km north.  It reached the bank of the Ussuri River but did not cross.
Frankly, a crude sketch done with Windows Paint over an old screenshot would be better, I have a hard time following your explanations. Then I must crosscheck them on my own maps. Sometimes I simply don't have enough energy, and prefer to leave things as they are, as they are not that bad.
The map shows the northern Titsihar-Harbin box correctly, but there is a rail-line heading north from the apex, definitely 1NE (and possibly 2NE - goes off the top of the page).  Additionally, the spur shown at the word Nen also goes off the page towards Blagoveshchensk.  All these rail-lines look like they were built for purely military reasons, to speed deployment to the border and facilitate supply.
I prefered to leave that one out as the WiF FE maps don't have it. They have a 2 pacific scaled hexes gap between the Russian & Manchu rails. On the MWiF map it became a 3 hex gap, which is narrow enough, no need to make it narrower.
The Russians even have a spur following the west coast of Lake Hanka, provocatively right up to the border and no further!

Perhaps you were aware of all these rail-lines, but decided not to include them for game-balance reasons.

The Lesser Kinghans do not qualify for mountain status, but I suppose we are stuck with them because they were in the original game.
Sure.
Manchukuo:  It is not technically correct to refer to Manchukuo as Manchuria.  Manchukuo consisted of Manchuria plus the Chinese province of Jehol.  I would recommend changing the name to Manchukuo.

The capital of Manchukuo was moved from Harbin to Changchun, which the Japanese then renamed Hsinking.
Those I prefer not to change.
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