Of mines, minesweepers and shore batteries

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Was D Day in France an "invasion in the face of coastal defence guns"?

Sort of, there were coastal defenses present, but the landings took place in areas the Germans did not expect them, lessening the fire from any CD present. The beaches that were defended were defended very well though, and casualties were high in those areas.

Which was pretty much the story of the whole war. If the enemy had concentrated defenses in one place, you typically landed or fought in another. WWII combat was completely different from previous wars due to the mobility involved. You simply weren't obliged to attack where the enemy expected you to.

Here is a site with good info on D-Day: http://www.dday.co.uk/

[DrewMatrix]

Casualties among the troops landing, yes, but there weren't transports being destroyed, right? The Germans didn't have huge bore coastal guns but they had lots of mid caliber weapons.

What stopped those from sinking transports? Massive fire suppression, right?

Or is all this no where near on the scale of the "Manilla Harbor/ Home Islands" coastal batteries?

The scale of fire suppression in late '44 and in '45 were enormouns compared to anything that could be mounted in '42.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Was D Day in France an "invasion in the face of coastal defence guns"?

Not really. There were integrated CD systems at the mouth of the Seine to the East and around the Port of Cherbourg to the Northwest. But the great majority of the guns facing the invasion landings were simply guns on the coast, zeroed in on the beaches, but lacking the naval-style fire control to engage moving targets at sea except over open sights... Basically the same thing as the US faced invading most Pacific Islands

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Was D Day in France an "invasion in the face of coastal defence guns"?

Not really. There were integrated CD systems at the mouth of the Seine to the East and around the Port of Cherbourg to the Northwest. But the great majority of the guns facing the invasion landings were simply guns on the coast, zeroed in on the beaches, but lacking the naval-style fire control to engage moving targets at sea except over open sights... Basically the same thing as the US faced invading most Pacific Islands

Didn't at least one destroyer get shot up by wandering in too close to the Cherborg Coastal Defense guns?

[spence]

German CD guns or German "guns on the coast" accounted for a couple of DDs and a number of minesweepers. I didn't actually count but the numbers of each were larger than those sunk by the Japanese CDs (or guns on the coast). A few transports and landing ships were also hit. The site noted earlier seemed to indicate that the CD defenses in Normandy were considerably more effective than at any Pacific site.

A gun duel between US and RN BBs and a true German CD unit in Cherbourg (not sure, maybe French guns?) ended up with the BBs essentially retreating out of range before sustaining serious damage (although they were hit) and the CDs got the better of the exchange. The CDs were overcome but a land side assault.

It is too bad that the models for both shore bombardment and CD effectiveness seem to have been singular events: the BB bombardment of Henderson Field in Oct 42, and the Marine CD defense of Wake Island on 11 December, 1941.

[Ursa MAior]

Does anybody know how narrow is the strait around Singer (IRL)?

Singers is still in allied hands, mned up to the neck with defensive mines and I find it a bit odd that whenver I cross that hex with my ships one hits a mine. At least the CD guns dont fire at me.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Does anybody know how narrow is the strait around Singer (IRL)?

Singapore Strait is about 10km across.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Does anybody know how narrow is the strait around Singer (IRL)?

Singers is still in allied hands, mned up to the neck with defensive mines and I find it a bit odd that whenver I cross that hex with my ships one hits a mine. At least the CD guns dont fire at me.

The problem with Singapore's defense was that the CD guns were positioned to fire out toward the ocean and couldn't be turned to face the straight and back towards Malaysia IIRC. Singapore was a tough nut to crack if trying to make an opposed amphibious landing, but by coming from the Malaysian peninsula through that narrow straight was much easier to accomplish.

Definately an error on the part of who ever designed the defenses. They didn't take into account that Malaysia might fall first and the threat would be faced from the penninsula itself.

[ctangus]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: pad152

You can clear minefields one hex away with MSW's, try that next time before you invade!!!

What do you mean - could you explain a little bit?

exactly like he wrote it! [;)] put your MSWs to the hex next to the hex where you think that there are mines and then they sweep them. At least it should work like this, but I always forget about that myself and send my MSWs directly in front of the enemy CD guns...

I learned the hard way that that doesn't keep you safe from CD guns though. After taking Bataan in one game I sent in some MSWs to clear the mines there. Manila was still allied. My ships decided to sweep the mines in Manila and I lost something like 8 of 12 to the CD guns there. [:(]

The best solution to the CD gun/mine combination is BB bombardments with DMS as escort. The DMS will sweep the mines and the BBs will eventually take out the guns. It's not an option for Japan, but then while Japan's on the offensive they usually don't have to face such a problem. Or certainly not to the degree that the allies can face it later in the game.

[Blackhorse]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Does anybody know how narrow is the strait around Singer (IRL)?

Singapore Strait is about 10km across.

IIRC, the Deepwater Channel in the Straits is only 1.5km wide at its narrowest point.

However, since the largest ships today have a considerably deeper draft (up to 45 meters) than in WWII, the channel may have been wider in the 1940s.

[Ken Estes]

Not to threadjack, but it apparently turns out the Singapore guns 'facing the wrong way' falls as yet another myth of the vast collection inside WWII: The 15" guns did fire on the peninsula, but had only 50rds HE per gun, the rest AP, and some of those were fired as well; probably to 'feel good.' I guess that myth became necessary to pare down the ingominious debacle for the British/CW Army.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The problem with Singapore's defense was that the CD guns were positioned to fire out toward the ocean and couldn't be turned to face the straight and back towards Malaysia IIRC. Singapore was a tough nut to crack if trying to make an opposed amphibious landing, but by coming from the Malaysian peninsula through that narrow straight was much easier to accomplish.

Definately an error on the part of who ever designed the defenses. They didn't take into account that Malaysia might fall first and the threat would be faced from the penninsula itself.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Ken Estes


Not to threadjack, but it apparently turns out the Singapore guns 'facing the wrong way' falls as yet another myth of the vast collection inside WWII: The 15" guns did fire on the peninsula, but had only 50rds HE per gun, the rest AP, and some of those were fired as well; probably to 'feel good.' I guess that myth became necessary to pare down the ingominious debacle for the British/CW Army.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

The problem with Singapore's defense was that the CD guns were positioned to fire out toward the ocean and couldn't be turned to face the straight and back towards Malaysia IIRC. Singapore was a tough nut to crack if trying to make an opposed amphibious landing, but by coming from the Malaysian peninsula through that narrow straight was much easier to accomplish.

Definately an error on the part of who ever designed the defenses. They didn't take into account that Malaysia might fall first and the threat would be faced from the penninsula itself.

So it wasn't an engineering blunder, but rather a logistics blunder. Still, it was a lack of foresight either way.

I've seen many conflicting reports on the fall of Singapore. Ranging from the gun debate to the suggestion that Percival simply gave up too easily. It would be very interesting to be able to talk to an actual Singapore defender to get their assessment of the situation.

[Ursa MAior]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Does anybody know how narrow is the strait around Singer (IRL)?

Singapore Strait is about 10km across.

Thanks. So for game purposes mining the Singer hex up to the neck should automatically "close" the strait as well?