OT-Ships in Gibraltar

[cantona2]

Unearthed these pics of ships in Gibraltar harbour during WW2 and thought some of you might enjoy it. Also got a photo at school of a Hudson about to take off from the airfield here which ill add tomorrow.
Cheers

[cantona2]

Number 2

[Historiker]

How attractive for some hordes of Stukas... [:(]

[wild_Willie2]

Stukas did not have the range to reach Gibraltar (I think)....
 
I never understood why the germans did not send a massive Ju-88 attack at Gibraltar harbour.
They would have lost some airplanes, but the gaines could have been worthwhile..... 

[cantona2]

Stukas did definitely did not have the range.
 
The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

[RBG]

Hi,
Picture no 2 was NOT taken during WWII - the apartment blocks in the foreground weren't built until after the war I think.
Also the aircraft carriers look like 60's designs not WWII era.
 
Nice pics though!
RBG

[cantona2]

RBG

You are correct. An oversite on my part. Those apartment blocks, locally known as the Humphries, were built in the 1950s to house the returning civilian population after being repatriated after being evacuated during the war.

You from Gibraltar are were you posted here?

[John Lansford]

I hope that AA gun in the bow of the ship in the first photo has some shielding behind them, or else when the DP gun mount behind them fires that crew is going to get some serious blast damage...

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Stukas did definitely did not have the range.

The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

I know...

But still I don't understand it as well, why there weren't attacks by Ju 88 or other bombers with higher range. I even don't know about any serious aerial attack on Scapa Flow as well.

[cantona2]

Raids on Gibraltar were limited to planes from Vichy bases in North Africa and the Regio Aeronautica

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Stukas did definitely did not have the range.

The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

I know...

But still I don't understand it as well, why there weren't attacks by Ju 88 or other bombers with higher range. I even don't know about any serious aerial attack on Scapa Flow as well.

Possibly due to the fact that they would be unescorted as well as invading neutral airspace?

[Terminus]

[sarcasm] No! Ya think?[;)][:D][/sarcasm]

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Stukas did definitely did not have the range.

The closest airbases would have been in France, 1000 kms or so away and would have had to fly over Spanish, ie neutral, airspace.

I know...

But still I don't understand it as well, why there weren't attacks by Ju 88 or other bombers with higher range. I even don't know about any serious aerial attack on Scapa Flow as well.

Possibly due to the fact that they would be unescorted as well as invading neutral airspace?

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - and from Sardinia and Lybia, Gibraltar can be reached as well...

[wild_Willie2]

I think that a dusk attack would have had a decent chance off succes, send in 100 ju-88's with 50 or so BF-110's as s escorts to knock out the airbase (there was only a single AB on Gibraltar) and at the same time send in 100 or so He-111 and ju-88's to attack the naval base.
 
Heck, even trow in some Italian Cant's for good measure....
 
The 110's would have taken a beating by the hurricanes/spits at gibraltar (did they even have spits there in 41-42 ?) but they would have cleared the way for the bombers to smash the base and hit the ships there hard...
 
Gibraltar had only a single airfield (unlike Malta, which had several) which could have been closed for severall hours by even a small strike. During this time the Axis powers would have had total air superiority....

[cantona2]

Willie
 
No Spits until Operation Torch. Hurries were based here though. Only one landing strip is correct. Gib is only about 6 square miles

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]

I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.

[wild_Willie2]

Hmmm, I would have send in an intelligence opperative posing as a "native" fisherman to check the state of the ships. If the main British naval squadron would have been in port (can't mask Cv's/BB's in gibraltar) , a signal would have been send and the prepared attack could have been executed the next day...
 
 

[cantona2]

That would have been Force H then Willie. Operation Felix, the proposed action against Gib makes for interesting reading. The Governor at the time, Macfarlene said that had the Germans tried to attack the Rock they would have taken one day before he had fortified it and 3 after but at something like 10,000-15,000 casualties.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]

I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.

In fact, when the Luftwaffe tried attacking up north during the BoB, they got their butts royally kicked. No escort fighters could reach that far (and I'm not counting the 110's, which were worthless as bomber escorts).

[wild_Willie2]

ORIGINAL: Dixie

ORIGINAL: Historiker

There's no neutral country in front of scapa - [snip]

I was only talking about Gibraltar. A raid against Scapa Flow would have taken quite a beating, even during the Battle of Britain with most of the RAF down South there were enough fighters in Scotland to defend against such a raid.

You could't close down all the AF's near Scapa in a single raid, so the Brits would always be able to mass severall AF worth of fighters against your raids. Also, Scapa is MUCH bigger than Gibraltar Harbour, hence ships would have been much more dispersed inside the harbour instead of posing a single big fat target like the ones in Gibraltar..