AAR of the RBG

[junk2drive]

RH, from the PCOWS manual, which I assume you have read:
[font=myriad-roman][left]Based on your victory point ratio vs. your opponent, the quality of your victory (or[/left][left]defeat) will be determined. This can range from a Marginal up to a Legendary rating.[/left][/font][font=myriad-bold][left] [/left] 
[/font]

Therefore, draw, marginal, minor, major, legendary

[Erik Rutins]

As a side note for everyone else, the parameters of a random battle are under your control. So if you think the one here was too easy for the Soviets, try the same parameters but just give the Germans a few extra points or adjust the Soviet anti-tank gun percentage downwards and see at what point your own skill level is exceeded.

[z1812]

Hi all,

Is that terrain pretty representative of what one can expect. It seems pretty flat. How high can hills be in PCK?

regards John

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: z1812
Is that terrain pretty representative of what one can expect. It seems pretty flat. How high can hills be in PCK?

As in real life, some terrain is flat and some is not. When one looks at terrain zoomed out, it's also easy to miss smaller elevation differences that are more significant at ground level. If you have a look at the screenshots in the game section, you can see some much more hilly terrain. All the maps were based on actual elevation data for the areas they covered. We did not want to put hills where there were none, likewise we wanted to make sure there would be some hilly maps and rolling maps as folks didn't appreciate the flat (but historical) maps in Winterstorm.

Regards,

- Erii

[rickier65]

I like the way the random Battle generator works. Seems to do pretty decent job of putting together a nice battle. And with Stridors experience with this game, I'd suspect in this situation, I would not have gotten a minor victory, I suspect I would have lost.

Are random battles generated in a way that they can be saved before they start. If I read this right, the battle was generated, then started in the game. So Someone could gnerate a random battle and then save it to play weeks later, or email to someone else?

Thanks Stridor! (now get back to testing!).

Rick

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Rick
Are random battles generated in a way that they can be saved before they start. If I read this right, the battle was generated, then started in the game. So Someone could gnerate a random battle and then save it to play weeks later, or email to someone else?

That's correct, though they are all named "random" and by default a new one overwrites the previous one. So if you get one you particularly like and want to save or share, you'll want to rename the "random" scenario file before generating another battle.

Regads,

- Erik

[Mobius]

I thought the human wave attack as pretty gutsy. You could have lost a ton of infantry doing this and lost the battle right there. It did help is that the church was used to screen many troops. If just left with infantry or light tanks I try to take out Paks with anti-tank rifles or light mortars. Though none were to be had in this case.

[ravinhood]

[/quote]
[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Your victory point allotment from this AAR is in my opinion waaaay to high. This should not have been more than a draw or minor victory.[/blockquote]


Um.. that's what it was - a marginal victory.

[/quote]
 
Sorry, but the games I have played and the NORMAL victory sequence is "Draw, Minor, Marginal, Decisive...where are you getting Marginal is the same as a Minor Victory?
 

sigh> Whatever. How you can be so sure of yourself with such limited knowledge is beyond me. Fine, I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to Panzer Command. I bow before your superior insight.

 
You showed me an AAR, my comments and feedback are from THAT AAR, what? Do you think no one can gain ANY knowledge about something from READING and AAR? I guess not, so, I guess I should BOW before your superior knowledge and forget reading AAR's since they are meaningless right?

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Sorry, but the games I have played and the NORMAL victory sequence is "Draw, Minor, Marginal, Decisive...where are you getting Marginal is the same as a Minor Victory?

A marginal victory is the smallest victory you can get in Panzer Command Kharkov. The next step below that is a Draw.

You showed me an AAR, my comments and feedback are from THAT AAR, what? Do you think no one can gain ANY knowledge about something from READING and AAR? I guess not, so, I guess I should BOW before your superior knowledge and forget reading AAR's since they are meaningless right?

You read the AAR, raised some concerns and your concerns were heard and responded to. You then insisted on ignoring all comments from people who have actually played the game and concluded that your own assessment based purely on the AAR was far more accurate. I welcome feedback, but I can't understand why you would "dig in" on an opinion based on limited info when we're telling you that your assumptions about the game are off.

Regards,

- Erik

[Stridor]

RH,

I thought I would chime in with some more comments to address your concerns now the sun has arisen on God's side of the world [:D]

I think this AAR really showed of some great points of the engine.

Why? Well for a start it was an AAR with the AI on attack. Most tactical games against the AI usually show it on defence because it gives a better game that way, mostly because it hides AI deficiencies. A defence is mostly static, with perhaps some minor manoeuvre to counter attack when it is demanded (if that will strengthen your defensive position), which is exactly what occurred. If I was to manoeuvre my force out of great defensive positions from which they are currently firing from (and hurting the enemy), then I would have lost 100% guaranteed! It is up to the attacking side to use manoeuvre to effectively weaken the defensive position, something I thought the AI did a surprisingly good job on. It deliberately delayed moving its 38s whilst it knew there were ATGs about. It moved infantry under smoke, what more could you have asked of it? Sure it left its run a bit late to "rush" the vic flag, however as has been stated this was simply due to the fact that I had put so much hurt on them that the German HQ said "Achtung! Ve have suffered vay too many causalities in zis operation, vhat ze hell iz going down zere?" There was no time bonus in this case which was set to start accumulating by turn 28, and even then would have been minor. That bonus is there as a kind cattle prod to make the game somewhat interesting if the Germans and myself had traded equal blows such that our points were the same, however both our positions would have been so weakened at that point, neither one of would have wanted to move from cover, so a static game would have otherwise ensued. In any case that bonus didn't fire anyway.

The PCK victory system is probably the best compromise for a single easy to use and understand victory points system. As Erik has pointed out it also makes historical sense. Mostly you are not under time pressure (sometimes you are, or this can be set if desired). There is no Turn X and everything ends deal. It is all based on points, points you have won from the enemy and points you have lost to them. You need to get the balance right.

So it is not just about vic flags, you do need to conserve your forces as well, or at least hurt them more (points-wise) than they are hurtn' you [;)]

[Mraah]

Erik, Stridor, and Ravinhood ...

To me, the label of a victory condition is just that ... a label. What one man's draw could be another man's marginal ... Remember the black knight, it's just a fleshwound, I've had worse, (chops off last leg) ... we'll call it a draw. [8|] ...

Thank you Stridor for the wonderful AAR. I'm looking forward to more as we wait for the release.

The only concern I have is how the next battle would have played out IF this was in a RCG.
I understand the time between battles could be variable based on the initial RCG settings, however, to me this battle seems to need another "go at it". If I was the defender I would have to dig myself out and I'm thinking some kind of 'extra' battle has to be thrown in to represent the battlefield several hours or perhaps the next day to finish.

Is there anything in place in the RCG to alter the next battle based on the outcome of the current battle? You know, kind of like a 'special' or coup-de-grace kinda of addition that's wasn't in the initial settings?

Thank you all,
Rob

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: Mraah

Erik, Stridor, and Ravinhood ...

To me, the label of a victory condition is just that ... a label. What one man's draw could be another man's marginal ... Remember the black knight, it's just a fleshwound, I've had worse, (chops off last leg) ... we'll call it a draw. [8|] ...

"Oh! Running away hey! Come back here and I'll bite your legs off!" I agree re: victory conditions. In the end this is a game and it has to be entertaining first and foremost. Did I have fun? Sure did!

Thank you Stridor for the wonderful AAR. I'm looking forward to more as we wait for the release.

Welcome

The only concern I have is how the next battle would have played out IF this was in a RCG.
I understand the time between battles could be variable based on the initial RCG settings, however, to me this battle seems to need another "go at it". If I was the defender I would have to dig myself out and I'm thinking some kind of 'extra' battle has to be thrown in to represent the battlefield several hours or perhaps the next day to finish.

Is there anything in place in the RCG to alter the next battle based on the outcome of the current battle? You know, kind of like a 'special' or coup-de-grace kinda of addition that's wasn't in the initial settings?

Thank you all,
Rob

I understand what you want, but the RCG doesn't work that way sorry. If you need some extra help you can appeal to HQ (see my latest post and screen shots in the random battles thread), but the RCG can't carry a narrative outside of what the random campaign designer (RCD) intended. It would be possible for a RCD to simulate kind of what you want with a short series of some specific key battles, but the RCG can't work them out all by itself with out a little human help [;)]

[Staggerwing]

I thought I would chime in with some more comments to address your concerns now the sun has arisen on God's side of the world

Stridor, where the heck do you live, Hanoi? Bangkok? Some secret island fortress
in the South China Sea guarded by sharks with frikkin' laser beams?
[:'(]

And, yes. Thanks for the AAR. Topnotch!

[Stridor]

ORIGINAL: Staggerwing

I thought I would chime in with some more comments to address your concerns now the sun has arisen on God's side of the world

Stridor, where the heck do you live, Hanoi? Bangkok? Some secret island fortress
in the South China Sea guarded by sharks with frikkin' laser beams?
[:'(]

And, yes. Thanks for the AAR. Topnotch!

"I come from a land down under
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."

[ravinhood]

ORIGINAL: Mraah

Erik, Stridor, and Ravinhood ...

To me, the label of a victory condition is just that ... a label. What one man's draw could be another man's marginal ... Remember the black knight, it's just a fleshwound, I've had worse, (chops off last leg) ... we'll call it a draw. [8|] ...

Thank you Stridor for the wonderful AAR. I'm looking forward to more as we wait for the release.

The only concern I have is how the next battle would have played out IF this was in a RCG.
I understand the time between battles could be variable based on the initial RCG settings, however, to me this battle seems to need another "go at it". If I was the defender I would have to dig myself out and I'm thinking some kind of 'extra' battle has to be thrown in to represent the battlefield several hours or perhaps the next day to finish.

Is there anything in place in the RCG to alter the next battle based on the outcome of the current battle? You know, kind of like a 'special' or coup-de-grace kinda of addition that's wasn't in the initial settings?

Thank you all,
Rob

Well to me Mraah it's long been more than just a "label" it is a level of victory. I'm really surprised there is no "minor victory" level in this game. There was in TS:JS and I expected one in this game as well. In fact I expected 4 levels of victory. Draw, Minor, Marginal and Decisive. Even Sid Meiers Civil War series has them. If you're playing by points for a condition of overall victory then a draw is zero, minor is 1, marginal is 2 and decisive is 4 or 5. Now that I understand there is no minor victory condition it doesn't really matter. Just dissatisfied that minor is not part of the victory conditions. That's my preference. But, we have seen Erik has his own ideas from shrinking the range values of tanks to now this.

We just have too many games where the AI is weak or at an exploitable disadvantage I think we all know that. While and after I read the AAR I saw here that this was one of those where one more turn could have and according to Stridor would have made all the difference. I'm just saying if they all turn out this way then it's not going to be as challenging or fun as say TS:JC is because the player is the one who must meet the objectives to defeat the AI not the other way around.

Also someone mention the german commander would have said Auctung blah blah and turned tail. Well I seem to remember Hitlers orders were NO RETREAT ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK anyone retreating will be court martialed or shot on sight....now don't tell me we're not going to have historical doctrine on the germans side in this game? Heck I even recall this was a Russian doctrine as well. I think they killed more of their own than the germans did for retreating though.

At any rate sorry Erik, I thought the game had a "minor victory" level and that's why I made such a big deal out of the "marginal" outcome. It was too high for what I observed from the AAR. Thus, I'd like to see a minor victory condition added to future releases.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Stridor
I understand what you want, but the RCG doesn't work that way sorry. If you need some extra help you can appeal to HQ (see my latest post and screen shots in the random battles thread), but the RCG can't carry a narrative outside of what the random campaign designer (RCD) intended. It would be possible for a RCD to simulate kind of what you want with a short series of some specific key battles, but the RCG can't work them out all by itself with out a little human help [;)]

Ok. No worries on my end. No need to be sorry about not having this feature, it's really insignificant compared to all the rest it can do!!!!
I'm the one to be sorry that this has been asked before ... the threads are getting so thick it seems the questions/answers have started to come around full circle.

A few posts above, Erik mentioned we can save the battle before playing and I'm not quite sure at which point he meant. Can it be saved right from your first post where you set all the parameters so that it can be replayed over and over again or does it need to generate the battle first and then can be saved.

I'm thinking of running a RBG where it's pure tanks, random attacker/defender. This way when I can jump right into a tank battle without having to set everything over again.

On that note ... if you're taking requests for the next AAR ... perhaps a jedi mind trick towards you > I WILL PLAY A PURE TAKE BATTLE NEXT.

Doh ... one more question (see screenshot below) ... Why does the image on the grill of the 251 look like someone smoking a cigar in front of a computer screen? [:D]

Thanks again,
Rob

[ravinhood]

lol I saw that too the computer looking screen on the front of a vehicle. Where's my killroy was here image?

[Staggerwing]

ORIGINAL: Stridor

"I come from a land down under
Where beer does flow and men chunder
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."

I figured...I was just being a wise guy.[:D]

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Well to me Mraah it's long been more than just a "label" it is a level of victory. I'm really surprised there is no "minor victory" level in this game. There was in TS:JS and I expected one in this game as well. In fact I expected 4 levels of victory. Draw, Minor, Marginal and Decisive.

Ok, Ravinhood, just try asking before assuming. Here are the victory levels to compare to your request above: Draw, Marginal, Decisive, Legendary. So a Marginal is a "Minor", unless you just care about labels. [;)]

But, we have seen Erik has his own ideas from shrinking the range values of tanks to now this.

[8|]

While and after I read the AAR I saw here that this was one of those where one more turn could have and according to Stridor would have made all the difference.

Stridor actually said the following: "In another 2-3 turns the advancing 38s would have reached the vic flag, and I doubt a human wave close assault attack would have stopped them."

Thats quite a bit different from "I definitely would have lost in one more turn". He still had forces, he had wiped out half the German panzers already (four of eight Panzer 38ts destroyed according to his after battle screen). You are drawing a lot of assumptions from what was presented to you.

Well I seem to remember Hitlers orders were NO RETREAT ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK anyone retreating will be court martialed or shot on sight....

<sigh>

Are you telling me I'm going to have to convince you that German tactical commanders at a company level didn't ever retreat after being ordered into an attack when they'd already lost a substantial portion of their force?

At any rate sorry Erik, I thought the game had a "minor victory" level and that's why I made such a big deal out of the "marginal" outcome. It was too high for what I observed from the AAR. Thus, I'd like to see a minor victory condition added to future releases.

The "Marginal" _is_ your "Minor" which is what I've been trying to tell you. [;)]

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Staggerwing
Some secret island fortress in the South China Sea guarded by sharks with frikkin' laser beams?

No, that's Dave - Stridor's in Australia. [;)]