Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

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Mike Scholl
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RE: Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

Post by Mike Scholl »

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

Hood was worse, but it wasn't like Johnston had run out of reasons for retreating. He never said to Davis that he would fight for Atlanta. He never could find the right position to hold. In his defense, one probably didn't exist, especially after Sherman had learned his lesson at Kennesaw Mt. One thing Davis did know (like Lincoln with Grant) was that Hood would fight until his remaining appendages had fallen or been blown off.


Thing was that Joe Johnson wasn't going to get his men killed in hopeless attacks. Davis, Bragg, Hood and the like seem to have remembered the Mexican War to much, and assumed that all that was needed to chase the Yankees back home was a good spirited bayonet charge. Bragg launched 11 of them at the Hornet's Nest, Hood left his Brigade "dead on the field" at Antietam. Johnson learned much quicker from Seven Pines that defense was definately the stronger tactic in the Civil War. He may have lacked Lee's ability to "get into the head" of his opponants, but no one ever had an easy time pushing an army commanded by Johnson around. Nor did he squander troops. Had he remained in command, Sherman would never dared cut loose from his supply lines on his "March to the Sea". It would have been the same slow slog as it was to get from Chattanooga to Atlanta. And a lot more Southern troops would have seen the end of the war.
John Lansford
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RE: Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

Post by John Lansford »

Johnston had the great advantage of terrain in northern Georgia as he retreated down to Atlanta.  All those ridges and if he was outflanked out of one position, there was always another one just a few miles further south.
 
Once he got to Atlanta, though, he ran out of defensible terrain.  He knew it too, which is why he was already preparing to abandon Atlanta when he was sacked.  Once he lost Kennesaw Mountain he knew his days of keeping Sherman's army limited to specific approaches was over; Sherman could use his superior numbers and keep him on the run just as Grant did Lee after his Petersburg defensive lines collapsed.  Johnston would have retreated to Savannah or Charleston and either surrendered there or just kept right on retreating until he joined Lee at Petersburg (one of his suggestions, only with Lee coming south to join with him).
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Bombsight
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RE: Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

Post by Bombsight »

Re: the border between Texas and Mexico.
The agreement that Santa Anna made following his capture at the Battle of San Jacinto was texas independence with a border at the Rio Bravo (Rio grande River). This was a "stretch goal" by Sam Houston. The historical border between Texas and Coahuila/Nuevo Leone during Spanish rule and continued into Mexican rule was the Nueces River. This agreement led to a disputed stretch of land between the two rivers. It was in this stretch of land that the opening battles of the Mexican War (Palo Alto and Resaca de Palma) were fought. This disputed stretch of land probably prompted that noted Whig congressman, Abraham Lincoln, to make his "spot resolution".

Sixth generation Texan speaking.
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niceguy2005
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RE: Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

Post by niceguy2005 »

ORIGINAL: pbear


Up until the Emancipation Proclamation, Union troop were confiscating slaves just like they confiscated property and then putting them too work.
How does that work when slavery is illegal in the North?
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anarchyintheuk
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RE: Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

Post by anarchyintheuk »

Scattershooting:

Agreed, Johnston would never had made the hopeless attacks such as Malvern Hill or Franklin. Hood seemed to have 'lost it' when he realized how close he had come to trapping Scholfield. I would disagree that his flanking moves around Atlanta, espcecially Peachtree Creek, were hopeless (reminiscent of his ANV days). He had the same problems as every other commander of the AoT, a lack of loyalty and trust in his corps commanders (something he had contributed to in bringing down Johnston).

Agreed, Johnston was one of the first Civil War generals to figure out the strength of the defense.

Shiloh came before Seven Pines so I don't think its fair to criticized the tactics used there, if there were any actually used. It was the first major battle out west and AS Johnston was to blame as well.

I would blame Lee not Hood for getting his brigade slaughtered at Antietem. Hood didn't get an incompletely concentrated ANV caught w/ a river to its back, only one bridge and generally poor defensive terrain. The fighting was desperate for a reason, Hood was outnumbered anywhere from 3-1 to 5-1 in the cornfield. His counterattack on Hooker's corps, confused him enough to 'no mas' the rest of the day.

Interesting 'what if' speculation about maneuvers after the loss of Atlanta. He certainly couldn't have done worse. I'd put that in the 'never could happen' category though; Davis hated Johnston too much to leave him in command after losing Atlanta imo.
anarchyintheuk
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RE: Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: pbear


Up until the Emancipation Proclamation, Union troop were confiscating slaves just like they confiscated property and then putting them too work.
How does that work when slavery is illegal in the North?

IIRC there was slavery in Kentucky, Maryland and Delaware. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't change anything in the Union states, just in those areas captured in the CSA. Lincoln successfully avoided setting a specific policy about what to do with captured slaves for commanders to follow until the EP. What happened varied from commander to commander w/ Lincoln retaining a form of a veto over their actions.

Forgot to add that Lincoln had no constitutional authority to free the slaves. Only by constitutional amendment after the war was slavery abolished. He only was able to issue the EP by grossly distorting his war powers granted to him under the Constitution.
John Lansford
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RE: Historial Reputations/Accounts True?

Post by John Lansford »

Johnston was inherently unable to do anything but stand in a defensive position and fight; the few times he tried offensive maneuvers were either desperate attacks such as at Bentonville, or to try and take advantage of defensive positions that split up the attacking force.  He had zero grasp of strategy, however,  and his inability to get along with other generals and his political bosses made him impossible to work with.  He was forever building strawmen for why he couldn't hold a particular position, usually due to a perceived lack of supply or shortage of men, and his tactical handling of a battlefield appeared to be mostly based on finding the quickest route back to the next defensive position.

No, I'm not impressed with him as a general.  Any Civil War era general with any defensive ability at all and the terrain advantages he had in northern Georgia should have been able to delay Sherman as well as he did. 
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