WiTP ASW Scen Design - Not RHS

[JWE]

The ASW “strength” of a ship or TF, is the sum of the number of launchers/rails, defined in the “Num” field of the weapon, in the editor or the game ship screen. The Mahan Class, for example, has 4 Mk-6 launchers (in twins) on center, and 2 Mk-7 rails (singles) on the stern, thus an ASW “strength” of 6. Neither Ammo, nor Mount, nor even Facing, enters into the picture. ASW “strength” is merely the size of the ‘salvos’ that the ship or TF can direct at a detected sub.



An ASW ship ‘shoots’ each ASW weapon separately, as its own ‘salvo’, and the number of ‘rounds’ expended per ‘salvo’ is the ‘number’ (Num). So for the Mahan, it can fire a ‘salvo’ of 2 Mk-7 DCs, each DC having a ‘chance’ to hit, and a ‘salvo of 4 Mk-6 DCs each DC having a ‘chance’ to hit. For each hit, there is a scale of damage inflicted, based on the Mk-6 or Mk-7 device ‘effect’ value.

‘Ammo’ is the maximum number of ‘salvos’ that an ASW weapon can fire. The Mahan can fire 6 ‘salvos’ of Mk-7s and 5 ‘salvos’ of Mk-6s. Typical ASW combat involves 2 to 5 ‘salvos’ from each ASW weapon. The number of attacks a ship will make is determined by a random calculation; sometimes it will attack once or twice, sometimes it will continue attacking until its ‘ammo’ is exhausted.

‘Turrets’ have no bearing on ASW combat. A ship with 2 Mk-7s in single turrets, and 4 Mk-6s in twin mounts, will fire a ‘salvo’ of 6. Turrets are used to determine weapon damage to the ASW ship. A ship with 4 Mk-6s in twin mounts can potentially lose all of its ASW capability with 2 hits to Wpn-10.

Facing makes little difference in ASW combat. 2 Racks of Mk-7 DC (Num = 2) on the stern, and 4 Mk-7 K guns (Num = 4) mounted center, will give you 2 ‘salvos’; one ‘salvo’ of 2, and one ‘salvo’ of 4.

OK bottom line .. ASW “strength” is a bit of a misnomer, since it only deals with the number of launchers. It is a measure of how many “chances to hit” you get once a sub is detected. Given a hit, it is the device characteristics (effect) that determines the “chance to kill”. So a “strength” 2 ship, with DCs having a big boom, may well be more effective than a “strength” 4 ship with DCs in the cherry bomb range.

Quick word about the editor for new modders. The names by the various editor fields (Wpn, Ammo, Effect, Durability, etc.) are only there for user convenience. The files that the editor consults and modifies are just comma separated data strings, of specific length, and the game engine might just look for variable 2, among the strings, and doesn’t care what ‘name’ that field was given.

Data fields also have different meanings depending on the value of other data fields. For example, if a ship Class has the data field called “Type” set to 013 (a sub), then the data field called “Durability” is really its max dive depth, divided by 10. Editor manual and other threads are helpful.

Have another post set, if there is interest, relating to the implications for things like Mousetrap or Hedgehog, and how the editor fields can be adjusted to capture different performance parameters. Probably another, again if there is interest, as to how the ASW ‘device’ parameters play within the game ASW combat code structure.

Open to questions if anyone has any. Ciao.

John

[Nomad]

So, near misses mean nothing then? Only direct hits count?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

So, near misses mean nothing then? Only direct hits count?

Exactly right. The code will show you something like "SS-7 rattled by near miss", but the only damage assigned to the sub, is the result of a veritable "hit". This ain't IRL, this is the game code.

[DuckofTindalos]

The near miss thing is just for a bit of chrome.

[Uamaga]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Nomad

So, near misses mean nothing then? Only direct hits count?

Exactly right. The code will show you something like "SS-7 rattled by near miss", but the only damage assigned to the sub, is the result of a veritable "hit". This ain't IRL, this is the game code.

But then there are messages like "Near miss damages bridge/fuel tanks" or "Near miss starts fire". I would swear that couple of such "near misses" result in small to medium damage of my subs AND that they are reported in Combat Report file as "hits". Is it true or did I manage to mislead myself once more time [:)]?

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Uamaga
But then there are messages like "Near miss damages bridge/fuel tanks" or "Near miss starts fire". I would swear that couple of such "near misses" result in small to medium damage of my subs AND that they are reported in Combat Report file as "hits". Is it true or did I manage to mislead myself once more time [:)]?

The ‘near miss’ thing is some chrome (as T says) on your Nav v Sub screen. To the game, the code either calculates a “hit” or ‘not”; ‘1’ or ‘0’, just that simple. For ‘hits’ that incur a very low number on the “chance to kill” die roll, the code grabs a text string that might say something like “near miss causes flooding in the engine room”.

Once again, I gotta say that the pretty words and pretty pictures you see have nothing to do with how the code works.

A ‘hit’ is a ‘hit’ and a ‘miss’ is a ‘miss’ in code terms. Ciao.

John

[Uamaga]

ORIGINAL: JWE

A ‘hit’ is a ‘hit’ and a ‘miss’ is a ‘miss’ in code terms. Ciao.

John

Fair enough... "A hit by any other name would hurt as sweet..." [:D]

[JWE]

Perhaps one of the reasons you don’t see hedgehogs or mousetraps in the stock game, is their peculiar characteristics, and the inability of the game code to adequately account for them.

The general hedgehog fired maybe 20 projectiles, each with about 65 lbs of torpex. This is compared to a Mk-6 DC with 300 lbs of explosive charge, or a Mk-7 with 600 lbs. The issue is how to portray this in terms of the game code.

The present editor ‘effect’ values do indeed show the Mk-7 DC with ‘effect’ of 600 (and the Mk-6 with ‘effect’ of 300), but the various hedgehogs are shown with ‘effect’ of 35. This should likely be adjusted to 65, in accord with IRL. But this still doesn’t help in determining patterning.

The code looks at ‘salvos’, so if you have a single hedgehog launcher, with ammo of 20 or 25, you will get a single attack, with a “chance to kill” based on an ‘effect’ of 35 or 65. Since ammo is 20 or 25. You ‘could’ get 20 to 25 ‘salvos’, but the game code doesn’t go that long, so your hedgehog is “practically” ineffective; you might get 6 or 7 shots (out of 20 or 25) at a kill numeric of 35 or 65 for each shot.

There are a couple ways (lots actually) that modders can accommodate these seemingly disparate elements. The one I found most effective is to have 1 hedgehog device with “Num” of 20; maybe ammo of 2 or more if you have reloads on your mind. This gives you 1 ‘salvo’ of 20 ‘rounds’, with 20 “chances to hit”, each with a ‘chance to kill’ based on the device ‘effect’ of 35 (or 65). This takes up lots of time if you have ‘combat screens’ turned on, but – what the hey – it’s your nickel.

Editor values and detailed support are available upon request. Ciao.

John

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Nomad

So, near misses mean nothing then? Only direct hits count?

Exactly right. The code will show you something like "SS-7 rattled by near miss", but the only damage assigned to the sub, is the result of a veritable "hit". This ain't IRL, this is the game code.

Very interesting, and enlightening. While also being frustrating, it is certainly a better message group than the original vanilla messages, IMHO.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Uamaga
But then there are messages like "Near miss damages bridge/fuel tanks" or "Near miss starts fire". I would swear that couple of such "near misses" result in small to medium damage of my subs AND that they are reported in Combat Report file as "hits". Is it true or did I manage to mislead myself once more time [:)]?

The ‘near miss’ thing is some chrome (as T says) on your Nav v Sub screen. To the game, the code either calculates a “hit” or ‘not”; ‘1’ or ‘0’, just that simple. For ‘hits’ that incur a very low number on the “chance to kill” die roll, the code grabs a text string that might say something like “near miss causes flooding in the engine room”.

Once again, I gotta say that the pretty words and pretty pictures you see have nothing to do with how the code works.

A ‘hit’ is a ‘hit’ and a ‘miss’ is a ‘miss’ in code terms. Ciao.

John

hmmm. I read what you write but then how does it come that subs end up with 30 sys damage after receiving 10-15 "near miss damages sub" (not the "near miss RATTLES sub"). And those near misses also show up as hits in the combat report. So if you say the code only knows real hits (of which 2 mostly sink a sub) then I don´t want to doubt your word but then also the code doesn´t work.

In the game "near miss damages sub" (again, not the "rattle" message) do cause sys, flt and fire damage.

[el cid again]

While each mounting may fire - it is not a separate attack - but merely part of a pattern. Only one DC is going to hit - otherwise none - for the entire pattern. So the technically correct way to use this model is to permit only a single attack - but somehow change the chance it hits as the total pattern size goes up. One way might be to use a Pattern of Four - or a Pattern of Eight - or a Pattern of Twelve - in each case the accuracy is different - but the hit value is that of a single DC. The idea that each Y gun gets a separate attack is inherently flawed.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

The near miss thing is just for a bit of chrome.

But REALISTIC chrome. For each pattern fired near a sub - the chances of near misses approach certainty - while the chances of a hit are far less.

And the "hits" can be interpreted to mean "any explosion close enough to cause damage" rather than always a direct hit. I have no big problem with the system in that respect - indeed there are too many hits - and not enough misses.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Uamaga
But then there are messages like "Near miss damages bridge/fuel tanks" or "Near miss starts fire". I would swear that couple of such "near misses" result in small to medium damage of my subs AND that they are reported in Combat Report file as "hits". Is it true or did I manage to mislead myself once more time [:)]?

The ‘near miss’ thing is some chrome (as T says) on your Nav v Sub screen. To the game, the code either calculates a “hit” or ‘not”; ‘1’ or ‘0’, just that simple. For ‘hits’ that incur a very low number on the “chance to kill” die roll, the code grabs a text string that might say something like “near miss causes flooding in the engine room”.

Once again, I gotta say that the pretty words and pretty pictures you see have nothing to do with how the code works.

A ‘hit’ is a ‘hit’ and a ‘miss’ is a ‘miss’ in code terms. Ciao.

John

hmmm. I read what you write but then how does it come that subs end up with 30 sys damage after receiving 10-15 "near miss damages sub" (not the "near miss RATTLES sub"). And those near misses also show up as hits in the combat report. So if you say the code only knows real hits (of which 2 mostly sink a sub) then I don´t want to doubt your word but then also the code doesn´t work.

In the game "near miss damages sub" (again, not the "rattle" message) do cause sys, flt and fire damage.

How code works is not obvious - even if you read it. One Matrix programmer wrote "After a year I thought I had a handle on how that worked. Then last week I came across a branch that changed everything." I think what we were told above is basically correct - but that you are ALSO correct. I have a vast set of hundreds of tests - and SOMETIMES I see system damage after an ASW attack in which there are no hits. Two possibilities exist:

1) Sometimes the display is out of sync with actual events - this happens if you hit escape at any time for any reason - so a failure to display a hit might not mean there was no hit

2) Sometimes - a die roll occurs that is interpreted differently than most of the time. This is classic GG - and the best way to understand it is difinitive test boxing. It is not unusual to be told "you have worked out how the code works pretty closely" - because - if you test with few enough variables for enough runs - you can figure it out.

Even if there were a comprehensive technical manual it would not always be right. A program does what it does - not what it was intended to do by the designer - double so when there are lots of other programmers over a long period. Understanding what it does is not entirely easy to do - and it may well be that we should use qualifying terminology like "in general" and "most of the time" or "the basic system"

[castor troy]

It´s not just sometimes it´s 100% of the time in my PBEMs that subs get damaged (heavily damaged) by the messages "near miss damages sub" (again, not the "near miss rattles sub".

My ports are full of subs with 40+ sys damage just from the "near miss damages sub" message.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: castor troy
hmmm. I read what you write but then how does it come that subs end up with 30 sys damage after receiving 10-15 "near miss damages sub" (not the "near miss RATTLES sub"). And those near misses also show up as hits in the combat report. So if you say the code only knows real hits (of which 2 mostly sink a sub) then I don´t want to doubt your word but then also the code doesn´t work.

In the game "near miss damages sub" (again, not the "rattle" message) do cause sys, flt and fire damage.

What happens is the code does its calculations and determines the value of the variable (damage), and evaluates the value. If no (damage), the code calls one of a couple of text strings, such as ‘Skipper evades’, or ‘Near miss rattles, and displays that on the combat graphic.

If (damage) is > 0, but less than a specified value, the code calls one of a couple of text strings such as ‘Near miss causes Engine damage’, and the like. If (damage) > 0, the program then allocates (damage) to (.sysdamage), (.floatdamage), (.enginedamage), (wpndamaged) and (.fires), each in accord with its own calculations. Depending on the values of these variables, the program calls one of several embedded text strings, such as ‘Fire in engine room’, or ‘Forward torpedo tube damaged’.

If (damage) > 0, there is also the random chance of ‘critical’ damage, again in accord with this subroutine’s calculations.

You could say that % to hit and % to kill are aggregated into one big calculation subroutine set, with a (damage) result spread from 0 (miss) to 100 (kill) and all sorts of possibilities in between. There are lots of calls to different [ShowMessage] text strings, throughout the ASW routine.

Hope this helps. Ciao.

John

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

It´s not just sometimes it´s 100% of the time in my PBEMs that subs get damaged (heavily damaged) by the messages "near miss damages sub" (again, not the "near miss rattles sub".

My ports are full of subs with 40+ sys damage just from the "near miss damages sub" message.

Hi Castor,

I’m not surprised at all. The text strings are embedded in the calculation subroutines and may not be as informative as they could be, perhaps. But they are what they are .. IF (damage) = A, THEN [ShowMessage] = A. A represents a range of (damage), so you might get the same text script for (.sysdamage) of 1 as for a (.sysdamage) of 9. And then, of course, there is the next ‘round’ that gets calculated on its own, individual merits; so you could well get 4 [ShowMessage] strings saying ‘Near miss causes flooding’, but the aggregate of the 4 hits could result in (.floatdamage) of 36!

BTW, summation aggregate (damage) can eventually result in a critical hit, even though the individual hits are small.

Not to say I agree with this, just that this is how it is done. My hope, in doing these threads, is that I can give modders and gamers an appreciation as to how the game code works for their information and appreciation. Ciao.

John

[DuckofTindalos]

Listen to JWE. He's seen the beast from THE INSIDE, and knows how it works. You don't, Castor.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Listen to JWE. He's seen the beast from THE INSIDE, and knows how it works. You don't, Castor.

If you would exceptionally really read what people have posted you could have read that I said that I don´t doubt his words and that I´m of the oppinion that, quote Terminus: The near miss thing is just for a bit of chrome. is not correct. Even though I have no idea about the code I have played thousands of hours and see the results of the code. And when I say that "the near miss thing is NOT just a bit for chrome", then you could exceptionally believe someone that has "play tested" this game for thousands of hours. Your problem seems to be most often that you absolutely underestimate what it means if people have watched the results of this programme for more than a couple of hours.

I do appriciate the info people are given by JWE and again, I´ve never argued against it. Well, partially perhaps, because like I have read it at the beginning of the thread (perhaps I just didn´t understand it due to the language barrier) is that it was said that ALL those near miss messages mean MISS and therefor NO damage. Which isn´t the case. And that´s obviously also what JWE now confirmed with his last post that those near miss (damages sub, not rattles sub) DO damage.

[witpqs]

John,

Please clarify about Hedgehog and Mousetrap - are they in the AE-stock (or basic) scenario?

Hedgehog is often cited as having been a major advantage for DE's in the war.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
John,
Please clarify about Hedgehog and Mousetrap - are they in the AE-stock (or basic) scenario?
Hedgehog is often cited as having been a major advantage for DE's in the war.

Woof!! I have a biggie coming as a result of questions by Castor and Alaska. Hedgehogs and Mousetraps are the sine qua non. Hope to answer all your questions. Ciao.

John