A campaign id like to see.

Trade tips and tricks, workarounds maps, and graphics mods. Why certain scenarios or campaigns are favorites, or how to improve stinkers. Attach your work to share/critique.

Moderator: MOD_SPWaW

User avatar
RockinHarry
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by RockinHarry »

Originally posted by ZeroAntipop
Do you have a screenshot of your custom trenchlines?
A scenario where I used them was "Probing Stalin Line41" and can be downloaded from the WarfareHQ SPWAW scenario page. Sorry....my private server (geocities) does not allow quick links for showing screenshots. Maybe I attach one to this post as JPG file later.

In General my attempt to create "trench" lines on SPWAW maps is by the use of the "gully" tiles and layer them with either rough or even "entrenchment" attributes. Shouldn´t be too difficult for anyone creating completely new trenchline graphics. What needs to be considered though is SPWAW scale where the minimum pixel resolutuin portrays 1meter details! ;) (1 pixel=1 meter)That´s why I was satisfied by using the gully graphics (wide combat trench).

ZeroAntipop,.. try downloading my Map Editing document file from my signature below (right mouse click/save target as..). Ther you find the details on how to create these mentioned trenchlines with Freds Map Editor.

Have fun


________-
Harry
RockinHarry in the web:

https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

So it's just the gully basically? No new graphics? I personally prefer the trench tile myself, it just looks more like a trench.
User avatar
Redleg
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 8:00 am

Post by Redleg »

The French used Cauchat LMG at a ratio of 1 per each 8 men. Each Cauchat used 2 ammo carriers who had 1,000 rounds. On the advance, the Cauchats were fired from the hip while moving forward.

In the Alps, many positions could only be reached via cable cars. They used small wooden boxes which appear to hold 2 men per trip. The terrain was very rocky and "fox holes" appear like bunkers build from piles of stone. I have never seen anything like a trench of the type seen on the East/West fronts.

This from a book, "Italy at war", 1917 and others I have for reference matter.

Each hex is 50 meters. Thus the shortest "trench" must be longer than those I have seen in old photos. Since I personally think trenches are very ugly, I normally don't use them since they mess up the movement of units near them.

G. C. Marshall's book, Infantry in Battle has descriptions of MGs being used in fire support roles at rather long range. Makes sense since there were MG companies and MG battalions.

Since the Yanks used French Cauchats, it is reasonable to assume that they used them in much the same way as the French. That is, LMG as assault weapons. Seems reasonable that the French army was not the only nation to use LMG in this fashion.

Problem is, SPWAW does not like to fire suppression with MG at any range longer than rifles. This makes it difficult to set up a scenario so MGs can be used in this fashion. If the AI will not fire these suppression missions, it gives the human still another gigantic advantage over the AI.

When I create a scenario, I "see" many things in a hex that are not visible to the eye: Rocks, small bushes, clumps of grass, sage brush, small buildings next to larger ones, smaller trees and brush under the trees, perhaps even cows and goats.

Anyway...........
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

Well. . .yes, the french had a LMG, but the troops did not like it, and it quickly became unused, especially by the Americans. By 1918, Germany had a SMG that was used rather effectively. However, SMGs were very uncommon, even in the last days of the war.
User avatar
Redleg
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 8:00 am

Post by Redleg »

OK, it makes no difference to me. I give up.
User avatar
Fallschirmjager
Posts: 3555
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:46 am
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee

Post by Fallschirmjager »

Yes...there´s already one of the monster guns the germans used at the eastern front (crimea) in the czech OOB available and can probably used for WW1 stuff like Liege, Verdun, Maubeuge ect., buuuuut...let me tell that they wouldn´t work as you would expect them to work in a SPWAW battle! You would hardly hit any point targets (forts, bunkers, redoubts) with them due to their low accuracy and in general these monster guns appear to me quite outside of SPWAW tactical scope. What you can do with these weapons is to remove infantry on the battlefield quickly, but with low rate of fire. There´s other artillery in the game that does the job much better though! (155,..)


Good thoughts harry but your forgetting one thing....
what fort is 50 yards wide and long?
I went to Liege last summer where I saw a very small part of a fort remodled....
I suck when judgeing distance but it was easily 2-3 hexes...just for a small part of one wall.
SpWaW allows multi-hex buildings dont they?

Plus im not a sticker for realisim....something that vaugly resembles Liege and even if its a half *** job ill enjoy it.

Problem is you developers never do any thing half assed :D LOL
pops
Posts: 189
Joined: Tue May 09, 2000 8:00 am
Location: Ontario Canada

Post by pops »

....now that was smooth......
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

Yea, we need to get some fort-building tools in here. . .Then we could make Verdun.
User avatar
RockinHarry
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by RockinHarry »

Originally posted by ZeroAntipop
So it's just the gully basically? No new graphics? I personally prefer the trench tile myself, it just looks more like a trench.
Yes..for scale reasons I prefer to use the gully tile. The regular SPWAW "trench" tile, compared to the 50pixel=50 yards scale would be about 20 yards wide!! Well..at least for me scale does matter.;) I even always use icon size 3 (preferences menu) to remind myself that things in SPWAW are not that big as it seems! :eek: (icon size 3 = smallest possible)

Another "trench" issue is that you can´t place the tile on terrain higher than ground level (=0) cause of the 1 hex visibility limit issue from these trench hexes. Can be fixed with Freds Editor, but then I prefer to use the smaller gully tiles anyway!

I´ll try to post some example scenario at tuesday coming, showing what is possible without too much work.

have fun
________
Harry
RockinHarry in the web:

https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann
User avatar
RockinHarry
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

WW1 Forts

Post by RockinHarry »

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
Yes...there´s already one of the monster guns the germans used at the eastern front (crimea) in the czech OOB available and can probably used for WW1 stuff like Liege, Verdun, Maubeuge ect., buuuuut...let me tell that they wouldn´t work as you would expect them to work in a SPWAW battle! You would hardly hit any point targets (forts, bunkers, redoubts) with them due to their low accuracy and in general these monster guns appear to me quite outside of SPWAW tactical scope. What you can do with these weapons is to remove infantry on the battlefield quickly, but with low rate of fire. There´s other artillery in the game that does the job much better though! (155,..)


Good thoughts harry but your forgetting one thing....
what fort is 50 yards wide and long?
I went to Liege last summer where I saw a very small part of a fort remodled....
I suck when judgeing distance but it was easily 2-3 hexes...just for a small part of one wall.
SpWaW allows multi-hex buildings dont they?

Plus im not a sticker for realisim....something that vaugly resembles Liege and even if its a half *** job ill enjoy it.

Problem is you developers never do any thing half assed :D LOL
hehe...yes in fact and at last you can fake anything in SPWAW! :D Any Lost Victories player already proceeded to Crimea battles?? *hint hint*
Seriously..I already thought about that making multi hex forts again, and I think the various structures (casemates, gun pits ect) can be simulated by multiple of bunker style units in a single hex. Graphically it´s much less of a problem, this already has been solved before and it´s not much work to do.

I´ll post some example here soon on what I have in mind. Would be nice if more of you "Vauban"s then drop in here!:)

_________
Harry
RockinHarry in the web:

https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann
User avatar
Fallschirmjager
Posts: 3555
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:46 am
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee

Post by Fallschirmjager »

My idea for a spwaw fort would be...


A group of stone houses surrounded by the tallest wall available in the game (what is that 3-4 feet?) with bunkers in every hex or every few hexes around the wall.

In order to keep infantry from from crossing the "wall" would it be possilbe to surroundthat with barbed wire or are the walls big enough?

Yes I know this doesnt resemble a fort in any way but....its close enough for me.
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

Yes. I believe perhaps we can get some talented graphic artists here and work on making a WW1 terrain mod. I would say make barbed wire like a fence, in that it's not a bunch of "x"s, but rather a long line. We could also work on custom fort hexes, like the road system, where you could design custom forts. Also, could we edit infantry graphics so it doesn't look like half the infantry are standing out of the trench? Anyways, just some creative burst seeing as there are others interested in the Great War.
User avatar
RockinHarry
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

WW1 forts modelling in SPWAW

Post by RockinHarry »

Ok...here´s first experimental little scenario dealing with WW1 fortifications. It´s not really a playable scenario, just something for those who want to see what can be modelled with SPWAW standard editing tools. No graphic mods ect. required here.

You can take a german infantry company, supported by two rail guns and other artillery and try to storm a french fort, similar to those to be found in the old WW1 french fortress belt.

Have a close look at the "fort" and tell whether it´s reasonably accurate modelled within SPWAW limitations.

Have fun :D

________
Harry
Attachments
ww1 forts pt (rhz).zip
(16.75 KiB) Downloaded 35 times
RockinHarry in the web:

https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

I went through a practice run with the artillery in my scenario. In 5 turns the German artillery caused 467 French Casualties, and the French still had oodles left. I have some 280mm siege guns, 220mm mortars, 380mm mortars, 120mm mortars, 81mm mortars, 77mm Howitzers 105 and 150mm howitzers. . .3 pages of arty in total. I would say in my scenario that one would have to have at least a 10 turn heavy artillery barrage to be succesful, just like in the real war. . .But it's coming along very nicely. And RockinHarry, that scenario is just. ..it brings tears to my eyes. I simply must have that recipe!
User avatar
Fallschirmjager
Posts: 3555
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2002 12:46 am
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee

Post by Fallschirmjager »

Harry I played you experiment and had mixed feelings.

First off I got some odd results.
I caused 103 french casulties.....But didnt see casulty reports during the bombarment.
Also I didnt know the french gave their HQ units 18 inch naval guns as stadard issue.....wtf?

Anways your fort was nice.
But unless you gave me 2 batallions and 5 pages of Artllery I could never take that.

Those rail runsa are inaccurate like you said.....maybe give out a FO and jack the guns experience to 150 or something.

Nice work ill keep testing them as long as you put them out.
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

Yes, he has valid points. It took many troops to seize one fort, and much artillery preperation. Also French HQ units, while quite stirring in their speeches, were not that powerful. Those generals couldn't pick up the shell.
User avatar
RockinHarry
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by RockinHarry »

Yes guys, you´re both right, but as said this was mainly a first impression on what can be modelled with SPWAW common tools. I put in particular a focus on modelling the french fort itself, but took no care on using adequate german assault forces to occupy it. You easily can expand this little prototype scenario with more artillery and infantry, just to see what forces are needed to overcome such strong position!

Did you notice how I modelled the forts trenches with its counterscarpe galleries? Or the graphic layers that show that the forts structures are mostly underground and covered with as thick coat of sand/dirt ect?

I´ve not yet overcome the problem that the "casemate" units throw off their occupants (french infantry) when heavily suppressed or shot, but that´s mainly a class problem and the OOB actually need to be changed accordingly. For example the "terrapin" unit I use for the casemates is classed as "assault gun"! In fact it needs to be classed as Armored personel carrier to work correctly!

If you´ve seen odd weapon configurations, then mainly du to the removal of unecessary weapon slot (LMG for example) off of the infantry units. SPWAW replaces them often with odd new weapons. Usually you don´t need to take care of them, I deactivated them in the Editor (click weapon slot-->red).
Again the OOB needs to be tweaked to avoid those minor hassles.
Maybe I tweak the czech or norway OOB a little bit for this.

Do you have any ideas how to model the german ect. trench mortars? You know, the stuff that is also called "Mine launcher" (Mienen Werfer in german).

Fallschirmjäger: The odd french casulaty result is due to the removal of unecessary crew members of the various bunker or casemate units. I edited down from crew size ~20 to ~5-10 and strangely SPWAW counts them as casualties right from the start. If you open the file with Freds WAW Editor you can see at the Battle summary screen that these lost crewmwmbers are already counted as the mentioned casualties. As scenario designer, you probably need to give the side in question an additional VH to zero it out somewhat. For example if french have ~100 pre game casualties then give them an additional VH worth 100 points that the opponent cannot take!

Inaccuracy of rail guns: I also would assume that these guns were already zeroed in on target, so they should be more accurate right from start. A FO might help, but would also raise the Rate of fire unnecessarily. The ROF already is to high for these huge guns! It´s some kind of trade off between historicity and playabilty. But last word is not yet said, if you find a solution that models these monster guns accurately, put it into the discussion here please! :)

ZeroAntipop: Wow, you put a hell of Artillery fire on the french! :D

Do you have some experience working with Fred Chlandas Map Editor? I can give you the recipe on building these forts then. In fact, doing the forts as I did is not quite easy to do, although I find the results worth the work put in it.
In fact I tried to model the forts that I have visited in Verdun long time ago (Fort Douaumont, Fort Vaux ect.) and also what I´ve read in the books I own (Allistair Horne, German Werth "Verdun-the battle and myth").
Any other ideas to model these kind of fortifications? Do they work as you would expect them to work within the SPWAW environment?

Ok..here´s somewhat refined version of the first scenario. The germans start in their trench lines and I did some minor tweaks to the fort and the french units. Also expect some light french artillery harassing the advancing germans. :eek:

If enough interest is out there, then maybe it turns out to be a full fleshed scenario later,..who knows? With your ideas and suggestion that´s possible for sure!:)

Have fun

_________
Harry
Attachments
vaubans forts 1916 v0.9 (rhz).zip
(18.14 KiB) Downloaded 38 times
RockinHarry in the web:

https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

I have little experience with Fred's map editor, I have a hard time getting it to work, and I follow the tutorials. Umm...another thing that needs to be done is to increase the HE ammo of all the artillery to represent the massive amounts of shells available to them. Also MG damage needs to be raised significantly as MGs killed many more in WW1 than in WW2 (difference between exposing oneself out in the open in no man's land and crawling on the ground). I've modified the German/French OOBs (still a few changes I wish to do) to reflect WW1. Oh and RockinHarry, how do I make trenches invisible to the other side? Or at least what's in them, the trench itself should be visible provided it's not behind trees or whatnot, but I don't want French soldiers shooting the German trenches from their trench - doesn't work, but I don't want to make the height too low so that they can't shoot the Germans leaving their trench. If I could do this I could make trenches 1 hex apart (probably more accurate for mid-late 1916-1918 battles).
User avatar
RockinHarry
Posts: 2344
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by RockinHarry »

Originally posted by ZeroAntipop
I have little experience with Fred's map editor, I have a hard time getting it to work, and I follow the tutorials. Umm...another thing that needs to be done is to increase the HE ammo of all the artillery to represent the massive amounts of shells available to them. Also MG damage needs to be raised significantly as MGs killed many more in WW1 than in WW2 (difference between exposing oneself out in the open in no man's land and crawling on the ground). I've modified the German/French OOBs (still a few changes I wish to do) to reflect WW1. Oh and RockinHarry, how do I make trenches invisible to the other side? Or at least what's in them, the trench itself should be visible provided it's not behind trees or whatnot, but I don't want French soldiers shooting the German trenches from their trench - doesn't work, but I don't want to make the height too low so that they can't shoot the Germans leaving their trench. If I could do this I could make trenches 1 hex apart (probably more accurate for mid-late 1916-1918 battles).
I just can recommend you to read the stuff that I collected in my map Edit document. Freds Help Files that come with his programs also have lots of hints ect. on how to work with the stuff. Should be all you need, I didn´t have any other stuff to start with and at last all findings are more or less based on Fred Chlandas Programs.:)

More artillery Ammo is no problem. You can give the Artillery as much as you like,...almost! :eek:
MG effectiveness,..nope. Raise experience or fire control rating of MG units. Or make terrain with least defensive benefits. For example "Mixed" and shellholes should work satisfactory. I had good experience with my test scenario so far and the few MG units took a heavy toll from the advancing germnas! :eek:

Trench thing: Take note the things called "trench" in SPWAW are more something like terrain obstacles, but not really "infantry trenches/fortification"! These things don´t even are useful as anti tank trenches, at least not if place normally.
You can read as said in my document how it really works. You also can read there how to place entrenchments, without the use of the silly sandbag graphics and much more...Have a look! ;)

BTW: Can you send me your modified WW1 OOBs? :) Would like to try them...

_________
Harry
RockinHarry in the web:

https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann
ZeroAntipop
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2001 10:00 am

Post by ZeroAntipop »

Sure, I'll look through your file, I'll send you my OOB files (Fr, Ge) soon as I finish up the final tweaks. I also use a lot of the heavy artillery found in dec. '49 OOBs. . .
Post Reply

Return to “SP:WaW Scenarios/Campaigns”