Servere Issues - Aircraft Preformance?

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

1275psi wrote: " Complaining about the air model when
a/ we haven't seen it
b/ have'nt played it
c/ sweated bricks putting all our experience and skill into programming it, drawing on proffessional skill and ability

is a rude insult to guys who are doing a mighty job trying to bring us the greatest simulation we could ever hope for "

Very well said.

I agree..

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Would you also agree that as long as the P-40 Maintains 330mph that the Zero could never shoot it down?

I'd "never say never." A diving Zeke could close in on 400 mph. It was horrid to maneuver, but if it were dive overtaking a P-40 moping along at 330 it could hit the P-40, given enough time between initiation of attack and P-40 driver's response. That is basically the same observation I made about the P-40 closing in on a slow moving Zeke. Something like an "likely miss because the high exp pilot in the high mvr plane may be presumed to evade" doesn't make much sense to me because that's not how it turned out, most of the time, when highly maneuverable Zekes fought against faster but less maneuverable P-38s and other fast types.

This particular argument is flawed, in that the Zeke could not dive much greater than 360 MPH without shedding it's skin. It simply was never designed to dive as it was solely a dogfighter of maneuverability, ala WW1.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Would you also agree that as long as the P-40 Maintains 330mph that the Zero could never shoot it down?

I'd "never say never." A diving Zeke could close in on 400 mph. It was horrid to maneuver, but if it were dive overtaking a P-40 moping along at 330 it could hit the P-40, given enough time between initiation of attack and P-40 driver's response. That is basically the same observation I made about the P-40 closing in on a slow moving Zeke. Something like an "likely miss because the high exp pilot in the high mvr plane may be presumed to evade" doesn't make much sense to me because that's not how it turned out, most of the time, when highly maneuverable Zekes fought against faster but less maneuverable P-38s and other fast types.

So now you admit that an A6M2 could and did perform the fabled boom and Zoom. I seem to remember a time when you disavowed that possibility. 330 isn't moping along for a P-40E mdiehl, it's nearly at it's topspeed and the power quadrant would be firewalled, and would have been for some time. Point being the P-40 and Zeke were photo negatives of each other, and where the pilots maximized their advantages whether they be of the A/C, or the tactical situation, the two could be fought to a draw or one could best the other.

By this rational, though you don't come right out and say so, you should very much like this example as the P-40 is clocked at 293mph. This is almost 40 Mph slower than the airspeed you totally agree is key to a P-40 outmanuevering a Zeke.

I think you misunderstand. I don't agree that the P-40 has to be going 332 to outmaneuver a Zeke. The Zeke was progressively less maneuverable as airspeed increased. F4F wildcat drivers found, by experience, that the key was to keep IAS above 280 mph. Erik Shilling (among others) wrote that the P-40 could outroll the Zeke at most combat airspeeds. And because you are a pilot, you know well that the speed with which a plane can roll does in part very strongly affect the speed at which it can bring a plane into its gunsight or get out of another plane's gunsight.

I didn't misunderstand. I get what you were saying, but I just couldn't help but bring up the energy state of the P-40 in question. You may not have said it above, but you've said it many times before, so I was "linking" the fact that you often hold that the P-40 and the F4F (the most discussed A/C) can outmaneuver the Zeke at A/S above 300.

You also tend to throw roll rate out as a trump. This is problematic as while RR is important in changing direction and thus MVR-ability, it is a brief instance here where the P-40 has anything to gain from it. RR is nothing more than a means to change the orientation of your lift vector. Once you do this RR ceases to be a factor, until you reorient your lift vector again. These are brief periods to the tune of a 1 or 2 seconds. After that pitch authority (in the slow or 1 circle fight) or turn rate (in the fast and 2 circle fight) become the measures of advantage. Unfortunately these terms are modern and apply little to the way combat occurred in WWII, particularly in a 4 to 1 like this one.

In this case the RR of the two A/C in question are on opposite scales. The Zeke rolls well in the Slow fight diminshing as is accelerates, owing to it's large Ailerons, while the P-40 benefits above 300mph but gets sluggish quickly below this speed. Unfortunately this particular example (which you dislike) is occuring at less than 300mph. RR is not helping the P-40 in this case.

Meanwhile our Zeke, er I should say Zekes are all around 240mph which is a good A/S for them particularly since they are climbing to meet the Warhawk.

I don't see how that is good for them. Any initial maneuver they can make isn't going to increase their energy state. In contrast, any maneuver the P-40 makes will be compensated for by increased energy from the descent. The only time in which the initial set up starts to favor the Zero is if the P-40 in the head to head misses his target and turns to re-engage while still in close proximity to the Zero(s). If the P-40 just dives through and the Zeroes pursue, the P-40 can turn the tables on them, because above around 280 mph that P-40 (and it seems F4Fs as well) can turn with the Zero and stay with it long enough to get hits. At that point, the very lightweight construction of the Zero, the rather good US deflection shooting training, and the rather high energy of the .50 BMG, become telling factors.

Except that as I said before the P-40 in question already benefited from it's Altitude by the time the shots were fired. And the Zekes had already closed to firing position and had 240MPH on their machines when the time came. As far as the code was concerned that P-40 at that moment in time, with 4 Zeroes attacking was doing 293, nothing more, nothing less. Then one of the 4 Zekes opened fire and checks were passed and failed. The result was a dead P-40. Everything you or I say about this "initial MVR" or "that position of advantage" has already occurred. It's all semantics anyway. We can wax philosophical all day long about how many different ways it could resolve, but it didn't. Not this time. If you want to fault anything fault my lazy interpretation of the code in my narrative.

The point being that the P-40 must have been slow to begin with if after all the possible modifiers it can only manage 293 at the point of combat.

OK. If you said the Zero has the edge at 250 mph I'd agree. In my view, at 293 the P-40 has the edge. Obviously what matters here is how long the combat lasts. If it stays a turning engagement, the whole fight is going to move into the window at which the Zero(s) are favored.

This is a fairly narrow and simplistic view of how air combat works. Essentially, if taken at face value you are saying at 293mph the P-40 should win more than it loses. That is more than 50% of the time. Parity would be 50/50, but you said "Edge". But yet again you tend to argue in a vacuum, something that armchair pilots often do. You cling to one thing in the absence of other more important considerations. You've said here that the P-40 should have survived, but you haven't once thought about why he is there in the first place. This is Dec 7th 1941. The pilot would have been driving to his dispersal dodging Strafing attacks and facing enemy planes as he was sucking up his gear. He'd be mad as hell and out for blood, not cooly running to live another day. So in this context, in 1941 the idea that he'd try to dogfight rather than fight "mdiehl-smart" is certain. oh, and he is at a 4 to 1 numerical disadvantage with no wingman.

I'm not interested in a debate, I just couldn't let an enormous contradiction like this go unnoticed.

There was no contradiction. Therefore any noticing was an error on the noticer's part.

ad hominem[8|][;)]

The P-40 in this case is also outnumbered 4 to 1.

Which begs the question why he's presumed to opt for a turning engagement rather than simply dive through and keep going.

[/quote]

See above Claire...the part where I mention this is Dec 7 1941 and he is not a Flying Tiger.

[1275psi]

To the Elf

Please stop arguing with M.
Its a waste of time, please concentrate on what you do.

In my eyes -a United states airman would have to rate as one of the most qualified pilots on the planet. The fact that one can find time in between serving his nation to add this skill and know how to a humble simulation game is a gift of time we really are not appreciating enough.

Please return to the game, your country -Oh and feeding us any other crumbs you might like to throw the way of us hungry WITP fans!

PS -I have to ask again -any hints how the program is handling very large engagements -ie CV strikes vs CAP?

Thankyou very much

[m10bob]

Elf's last point is very relevant because for approx 6 months, the idea of boom and zoom was not tactical doctrine anywhere for the allies, EXCEPT when practiced under Chennault's command.
In fact, when Brit pilots saw AVG planes doing this,(killing and scurrying to fight another day), they felt it cowardly and un-civil, and felt if they had tried this tactic, (shooting and leaving the scene of battle) would certainly be a court-martial offense.
Only after much depletion of planes and pilots was it recognized Chennault's flyers were still in a position to kill their foe with minimal risk of loss.
While the AVG did not fly any missions till after December 7th, Chennault had been in China developing that tactic for years, and had detected the flaws of Japanese planes and their tactical capability.
Great maneuverability was the one commonality of all Japanese fighter planes of that time, (Nate, Claude, Oscar, and Zeke).
While the latter was never encountered by the AVG until maybe 14th AF days, the "type" of plane certainly was.

[1275psi]

Now this WAS funny


"
My point is that the issue is what these PARTICULAR historic aircraft could do at different airspeeds. One need not be an F-18 pilot to have a very good understanding of how these planes worked"


hey Buddy
I knew everything there was about a certain plane I flew - read it all, discussed it all -even done 60 odd hours in it - and then I had my very first high speed stall

And realised -I knew nothing -not a suasage.
When it comes to flying -iether you do -and can
Or you cant

Once you go Solo -then you can talk to pilots - its just something about being "in the club"
Sorry bud
books do not count in the Solo club house[:'(]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi



Now this WAS funny


"
My point is that the issue is what these PARTICULAR historic aircraft could do at different airspeeds. One need not be an F-18 pilot to have a very good understanding of how these planes worked"


hey Buddy
I knew everything there was about a certain plane I flew - read it all, discussed it all -even done 60 odd hours in it - and then I had my very first high speed stall

And realised -I knew nothing -not a suasage.
When it comes to flying -iether you do -and can
Or you cant

Once you go Solo -then you can talk to pilots - its just something about being "in the club"
Sorry bud
books do not count in the Solo club house[:'(]

While I can agree with your viewpoint, we must also be aware Matrix is a commercial venture, and while none of the AE folks may get monetary renumeration, they are using the forum provided by Matrix.
Can't really be "elitist" because of having pilots licenses, combat experience, nor a quantum of formal education.
We must remember members on these forums might be anywhere from 8 to 100, possibly semi-illiterate, senile, possibly criminally insane. (Terminus has been accused of some of these, as have I,LOL).
No test nor barrier has been given to determine otherwise, and it must remain a matter of both faith AND judgement that the responsible people will be the source of most of the major contributions here, but, this will NOT always be the case, since the electronic "gate" is wide open.

AE will never satisfy everybody, and maybe these forums allow us to pick THOSE folks out immediately, (saving us the need to request they wear tin foil hats).
All are welcome to their opinions, and many of those opinions have in past been brought into the game.

The old joke was that the blind man's favorite color was "cordorouy".
Color was a concept the blind man did not understand, but he could understand that which made things "appear" different, (which is not always a visual thing.)

Hard to educate an armchair general, pilot, admiral to everything they have never experienced, and the books they might have read in past have us at a serious disadvantage because the books presented certain ideas and info to the armchair bound advocate in a way he/she could adapt to easily, in a uniform way.

You can describe a roller coaster to somebody, but till they are strapped into one after having a chocolate malt and 3 slices of pepperoni pizza, they will never understand the physics of g forces and convulsive vomiting working with each other to evacuate the closest coaster cars, once the ride is over.

[undercovergeek]

but to what end are we receiving the unenlightened knowledge? is anyone here taking any notice? will the unenlightened opinions be present in the game? will even the 'font of all unenlightened knowledge' buy the game?
 
i just dont understand what the point of the debate is:- this is whats happening and people with relevant experience are making it happen, and anything you care to present is just an excuse to cause further arguement

[Adnan Meshuggi]

well, i suggest we all ignore the people who have very limited attitudes to real facts and help the AE-Team.
If 99,999% of the users and PLAYERS of this game are happy with the new combat model it is fine if one NONPLAYER oft he game will be unhappy. For me this sounds okay.

Me too would be happy if elf do his great job to the game instead of doing the useless try to explain easy understandable things to people who wouldn´t understand it, even if they had understood.

The best thing in this forum is the ignore-button. The world is so great sadly the replays will be still shown. This would be great, that ANY comment of a blocked user (as long as someone do not copy and paste) will be ignored.
 
The P40 in 1942 would more often be the sitting duck instead of the winner. Point. Certain users dislike the facts. No problem. If they are unhappy with the game  they do not need to play it. Oooops they do not play it. Fine [:D]
 

[bradfordkay]

I don't fault Elf at all for his discourse here. Something tells me that it is a somewhat cathartic exercise for him.

I, for one, am very impressed with the described air combat simulation. It most certainly appears to be a big improvement over what we have now - and enjoy greatly for the most part.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I don't fault Elf at all for his discourse here. Something tells me that it is a somewhat cathartic exercise for him.

I, for one, am very impressed with the described air combat simulation. It most certainly appears to be a big improvement over what we have now - and enjoy greatly for the most part.

Also one other thing to think about... [:D]

I remember that many months ago (when WitP-AE discussions here started) one small sentence was almost missed... the developers told us that there will be NO more huge battles that we see right now in WitP where it seems that everything happens at one single point in time with almost 100% coordination of all participating flights (although air phase in game last for many hours)! [:)]

Instead, what they told us they did, is that we will see many many more smaller clashes (instead of current huge one)! [&o][&o][&o]


Leo "Apollo11"

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I don't fault Elf at all for his discourse here. Something tells me that it is a somewhat cathartic exercise for him.

I, for one, am very impressed with the described air combat simulation. It most certainly appears to be a big improvement over what we have now - and enjoy greatly for the most part.

I agree, and would have never dreamed such tactical consideration possible in a grand strategy game.

[Barb]

Ehm. I have one heretic question [:D]

Should it be possible to see similar detailed (debug mode) naval combats or bomber runs against ships on this forum?
Or how the game will handle air kills in say Midway size carrier battle (4vs3 or similar) ?

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Ehm. I have one heretic question [:D]

Should it be possible to see similar detailed (debug mode) naval combats or bomber runs against ships on this forum?
Or how the game will handle air kills in say Midway size carrier battle (4vs3 or similar) ?

I am currently testing 2 vs 2 and 4 vs 4 CV battles during the 1943 time period. Testing is still in the early stages and so really can't say what the final product will reveal but so far I would say you should have plenty of repair points available at the nearest repair yard. Some ARs would help too.

Oh, and don't forget the life jackets. [:D]

Chez

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Ehm. I have one heretic question [:D]

Should it be possible to see similar detailed (debug mode) naval combats or bomber runs against ships on this forum?
Or how the game will handle air kills in say Midway size carrier battle (4vs3 or similar) ?

I would like to see a mod which would use the planesides for tactical air to surface ship battles, showing torpedo planes coming in low, dive bombers attacking at maybe 45 degree angle, level bombers coming in high.
Should work since the opposing planesides are facing the opposite direction.??
The gun shell splashes are already in the graphics library, and might even show planes "going in"??

[mdiehl]

So now you admit that an A6M2 could and did perform the fabled boom and Zoom.

Non-sequitur. I never made any opinion about the Zero's efforts to do same. There is, therefore, nothing for me to admit by way of oversight. The error is, once again, a product of your propensity to mendaciously assert or imply that I've made an error that I have not made by asserting or implying I said something that I have not said.

[BShaftoe]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

So now you admit that an A6M2 could and did perform the fabled boom and Zoom.

Non-sequitur. I never made any opinion about the Zero's efforts to do same. There is, therefore, nothing for me to admit by way of oversight. The error is, once again, a product of your propensity to mendaciously assert or imply that I've made an error that I have not made by asserting or implying I said something that I have not said.

Except for the part when that hypothethical Zero just run away from the P40 (easily feasible if you hit a plane flying at 330mph when you're diving 400+ mph), this is BnZ by my book:

I'd "never say never." A diving Zeke could close in on 400 mph. It was horrid to maneuver, but if it were dive overtaking a P-40 moping along at 330 it could hit the P-40, given enough time between initiation of attack and P-40 driver's response.

[mdiehl]

Except for the part when that hypothethical Zero just run away from the P40 (easily feasible if you hit a plane flying at 330mph when you're diving 400+ mph), this is BnZ by my book:

Agreed. The Zekes flew BnZ against the CAC prior to their move south. No one ever suggested that they could not do so.