AI for MWIF - Argentina

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Argentina could come into the war via a silly Allied player wanting, say the oil in Colombia and forgetting this lets the Axis align Argentina. In that case there might not be any direct Allied threat to Argentina (no lift within range, and perhaps none on the horizon for a little while) and you might want the Argentines to invade a previously aligned Brazil. They'd have to take Uruguay before their RES MIL showed up in that case. Hard to tell what possibilities would exist without looking at a bigger bit of the new South American map.

With the new map it is a long way to Sao Paolo and only possible to gain supply there by sea (you need an additional CP if you play with limited oversea supply).

Personaly I prefer Argentina to stay defensive even if the enemy is not in a position to invade argentina. Even with the navy (if the oil rule is in effect). I prefer to use the oil for production and get a "free" BP each turn from Argentina thanks to my enemies "kindness" to let me have Argentina.

-Orm

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I would still consider separate logic trees for countries aligned voluntarily by one side, which will generally feature a totally different situation than these purely defensive set-ups.

If I got it right these setups will only be used if the minor country is declared war on. If the country is aligned I think it is the same routine that put up reinforcements that will be used.


-Orm

While I am most concerned about getting the setup right when the minor has had war declared upon it, I would like to use the same methodology for when they are aligned. My reason for this is that those events both take place during the DOW 'phase' and the restrictions on where the units can be placed are identical.

[brian brian]

The methodology developed so far is great, but in every case it presumes an attack, with maybe a chance at a one or two impulse raid on something. But countries that get aligned generally have a lot of offensive opportunities they don't have after a DoW. Maybe the USA is approaching Colombia with a few raider units overland from Central America, and forgot all about Argentina...why have Argentina just sit there like a turtle? Maybe Brazil isn't in the war, to save the USA an objective (is that still how it works?)... and I don't get the Marauder options for Bolivia or Chile - if those countries are neutral, you just handed them to the Allies. If they are not, Argentina was already aligned probably.

I've never seen the Argentine units on the board, myself. But I would think their ships could easily reach some otherwise undefended or hard-to-defend Allied sea zones. And if Uncle Sam is coming to get them with plenty of forces, maybe it would be better to escape to a Japanese base in the Indian Ocean (or even the south Pacific? I don't know the ranges on the Argentine ships). Except if the Axis align it without an Allied DoW, then it is a German country...but maybe they control Suez. I'd rather have them cause mayhem than get one BP for a few turns.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The methodology developed so far is great, but in every case it presumes an attack, with maybe a chance at a one or two impulse raid on something. But countries that get aligned generally have a lot of offensive opportunities they don't have after a DoW. Maybe the USA is approaching Colombia with a few raider units overland from Central America, and forgot all about Argentina...why have Argentina just sit there like a turtle? Maybe Brazil isn't in the war, to save the USA an objective (is that still how it works?)... and I don't get the Marauder options for Bolivia or Chile - if those countries are neutral, you just handed them to the Allies. If they are not, Argentina was already aligned probably.

I've never seen the Argentine units on the board, myself. But I would think their ships could easily reach some otherwise undefended or hard-to-defend Allied sea zones. And if Uncle Sam is coming to get them with plenty of forces, maybe it would be better to escape to a Japanese base in the Indian Ocean (or even the south Pacific? I don't know the ranges on the Argentine ships). Except if the Axis align it without an Allied DoW, then it is a German country...but maybe they control Suez. I'd rather have them cause mayhem than get one BP for a few turns.

Here are the Argentine units. There is also the 4-3 Inf that arrives in 1940.

[Neilster]

Actually, in Argentina, the "Rosario Defence" usually involves a father with a shotgun keeping some distance between sleazy local men and his fiery, busty, gorgeous daughter. I'm thinking Salma Hayek here...for obvious reasons [:'(]

Edit: In Salma's case, it's definitely 39+ but I wouldn't be surprised if it's 41+ [:D]

Cheers, Neilster

[brian brian]

The 41 Invasion Defence with a unit in Marl in Mar del Plata doesn't seem to accomplish much aside from forcing the CAV to rail back to B.A. and flip (if the controlling Major Power has a rail move to use on it, and if the MIL hasn't appeared). Let them have the port if they want to build up slowly like that. Maybe it will rain and they'll waste lots of time down there. With the CAV that far south, they'll probably just land on the 2 factor notional adjacent to Buenos Aires and already be across the river line, and then land an HQ directly into the hex.

I was thinking about the paper maps and what was hazily in my mind was the necessity of taking the nearest Brazillian port to open up more possibilities for the Argentine navy. The Brazillian ground pieces could easily be set up in the northern part of the country to facilitate transport to Europe...where the Brazillian navy might already be stationed.

But I noticed you changed the sea boundary to make Montevideo on the border ... but not Buenos Aires (seems like they wouldn't be very different for ocean access though? Moving the boundary to Uruguay seems much worse for Argentina as the Allies can land Marines in Uruguay on one impulse and then walk to La Plata. Why move the boundary at all? Shouldn't the map be kept the same as WiF:FE?). So the Axis would benefit from taking Montevideo for a new base for convoy raiding in the South Atlantic. Though this is based only on an American player trying to grab resources in South America without being ready to launch much of an Argentine campaign. Taking Uruguay would benefit Argentina's land defenses too as the enemy force couldn't land Marines in Uruguay quite as easily any more.

Given the ranges of the Argentine navy, it would be an exceptional game where many ships could make it to another Axis base at double range, but some could (and it wouldn't be too likely that Japan could ever intervene on the west coast of South America, but a great majority of games never see anything happen in South American to begin with). Depending on that could determine where to put their ships; if it didn't look like they would last too long the longer range ones could sail for a future. The 4-range BBs, for example, could make it to Japanese port if it started in Comodoro Rivadavia. Maybe the 3 range cruisers could from the same port, over to the Indian Ocean. Or maybe Gibraltar is Axis and you want them set up to the north.

Also, rather than setting up their ships randomly, it could be done based on enemy port strike capabilities. After that, a decision could be made to either have them scatter for longer-term Axis use, or to operate from Argentina for a turn or two or with some luck, three.

[brian brian]

Oh, and with maybe only a single enemy MAR in Uruguay, I'd set up the INF in the capital and the CAV in the adjacent city, so they couldn't just walk across to an easy beachhead. Maybe not though, if they could triple that MAR with shore bombardment and doubled-on-surprise ground support (nearby CVs, Brazilian air force?). Then I'd put them both in the capital.

[peskpesk]

* Capital defence 41+ E

[brian brian]

looks good, thanks!

[brian brian]

I looked around at the map of Argentina in the 'American map' thread...Sao Paolo is within two rides for the Argentina CAV unit. Maybe the Brazillians are all in Italy, or off on some other frontier of their country, invading some other South American country and triggering Argentina's entry, and the Rio MIL isn't on yet, or flipped via a rail move to that other frontier. Sao Paolo has two factories that could be blocked for a while...maybe quite a while - a mountain hex with a -3 on any attack. Or maybe the USA really needed a land or naval impulse somewhere else in the world, but now they need to take a combined to cover Sao Paolo and save their BPs...and the Argentina CAV rides back to base instead, mission accomplished.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I looked around at the map of Argentina in the 'American map' thread...Sao Paolo is within two rides for the Argentina CAV unit. Maybe the Brazillians are all in Italy, or off on some other frontier of their country, invading some other South American country and triggering Argentina's entry, and the Rio MIL isn't on yet, or flipped via a rail move to that other frontier. Sao Paolo has two factories that could be blocked for a while...maybe quite a while - a mountain hex with a -3 on any attack. Or maybe the USA really needed a land or naval impulse somewhere else in the world, but now they need to take a combined to cover Sao Paolo and save their BPs...and the Argentina CAV rides back to base instead, mission accomplished.

It could be worth having a setup for a try to get to Sao Paolo. A empty Sao Paolo and a double impulse with fine weather is all it takes

A few comments however.
-If Sao Paolo is captured you will conquer Brazil at the end of the turn.
-The Argenians starting 2 moves from Sao Paolo are out of supply making it at least a 2 turn move.
-All Brazilian land units can never be out of Brazil because they start with 2 land units and when they get their aircraft they start with 3 land units (see restrictions on use below).

Cut from RAW:
19.4 Minor country units
Restrictions on use
Minor country units can move and fight outside their home country. However, you can only move a minor country land or aircraft unit outside the home country controlled by the minor, if half or more of its on map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country (exception: Rumania becomes a full Axis ally ~ see 19.6.2).


-Orm

[brian brian]

There is one case where all the Brazillian ground units could have left the country...after a 41 alignment and the US building the aircraft unit in 42, but not the new '42 ground unit, three ground pieces could have left the country. I do this all the time with some of the Axis minors if Germany is rolling and needs more troops for Partisan detail - I keep their extra PiF planes and add them to the German pool late in 42 when the German pool is low, just to put them on the map temporarily to allow more of their ground forces to leave (2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 units can actually leave the country). Then I pull the pilot for something more useful. But most often the Rio MIL would never leave Brazil and the only good hope for this raid would be if it had rail moved up to a port on the Mouths of the Amazon sea zone. And the Brazillian plane is very nice and tends to be a unit I use overseas. (I also like to send their CAV to a Free French Senegal).

I forgot though that that far NE corner of Argentina starts out of supply, so this rare gambit would depend on the possibilities of a double move. Activity in the southern hemisphere, such as a US grab for resources in South America, is more likely in the winter though, when the impulse marker is moving faster and the turn ends are more highly variable.

But I think Rio is the capital, and you would need that also to conquer Brazil.

In table-top WiF, the other Allies can tend to kind of frown on the USA monkeying around in South America instead of coming to help them immediately. But I think MWiF games might have a tendency to less inhibited affairs, and Argentina might be seen in action more frequently.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: brian brian


But I think Rio is the capital, and you would need that also to conquer Brazil.

Rio is indeed the Capital. It was my mistake. I was fooled by the red letters in the Sao Paulo name that signals that it is a Victory City and thought it was the capital.

-Orm

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

There is one case where all the Brazillian ground units could have left the country...after a 41 alignment and the US building the aircraft unit in 42, but not the new '42 ground unit, three ground pieces could have left the country. I do this all the time with some of the Axis minors if Germany is rolling and needs more troops for Partisan detail - I keep their extra PiF planes and add them to the German pool late in 42 when the German pool is low, just to put them on the map temporarily to allow more of their ground forces to leave (2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 units can actually leave the country). Then I pull the pilot for something more useful. But most often the Rio MIL would never leave Brazil and the only good hope for this raid would be if it had rail moved up to a port on the Mouths of the Amazon sea zone. And the Brazillian plane is very nice and tends to be a unit I use overseas. (I also like to send their CAV to a Free French Senegal).

I am not sure how you succeed in getting all the land units out of Brazil. With a 41 alignment of Brazil they get 2 land units + 2 in reserve. 1942 they get an AC and if they build that one they can move 3 units out of Brazil but that leaves 1 out of the four land units.

Has there been a change in the units? I do not have the 42 land unit you refer to. I do however have a 1941 6-4 mot.

Even if Brazil aligns 1939 they will get 3 land units (with reserve) so with the plane they get 4 units but they still need to leave at least one land unit.

The only way I see how Brazil can get all of its land units out of Brazil is if enough land units already has been destroyed somewhere.

-Orm

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Here are the other South and Central American forces as of 1944. Mexico also has a fighter-bomber it can build.

[brian brian]

That's one back on my end...I thought the MOT came in '42.

Anyway, strange things can happen in WiF and the Brazilians could be up near the Mouths of the Amazon sea zone...so with some double move opportunities a Sao Paolo option for the Marauder defense could be good. A bit more likely and useful than a raid on Bolivia.


And who wouldn't build the Free Mexican Air Force? If only aligning one of Brazil or Mexico, I prefer the Mexicans, mostly so you can make your opponent squirm with the glorious accomplishments of Pancho Villa's grandson in the obscure theaters of the war.

[peskpesk]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
...
Sao Paolo option for the Marauder defense could be good.
...

* Marauder defence 39+ C Brazil (going for Sao Paolo)

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are the other South and Central American forces as of 1944. Mexico also has a fighter-bomber it can build.

Mexicos Fighter-Bomber should be part of its setup force.

-Orm

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are the other South and Central American forces as of 1944. Mexico also has a fighter-bomber it can build.

Mexicos Fighter-Bomber should be part of its setup force.

-Orm

As I said.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

As I said.

You said it was available to be built. Since I found a discrepancy before in MWIF concerning unit availability I wanted to make sure that the fighter was a unit that was set up on map in MWIF and not a unit that was always put in the forcepool upon war entry.

-Orm