Aircraft Reinforcements and Pools

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: rominet

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

No, if you withdraw the Dornier squadrons they will come back equipped with C-47s.

(edit: or Dakotas, either way, same plane)

The Martains I believe come back as Hudsons.

No, in stock, they came back as PBY-Catalina.

And the Martin 139 came back as Martin 139 or Hudson but i don't know what is the criterion[&:].

Well this much I can promise you. Every time I have disbanded a Dutch patrol squadron they have come back as Dakotas. But then, I DISBAND units. I dont WITHDRAW them. I dump the pilots into the other squadron also rather than leaving the pilots in the old squadron.

When you disband the unit comes back with trained pilots - free.

When you widraw them, they keep their pilots (or at least they are supposed to) with the unit. So no free pilots. I'd rather have free trained pilots than free PBYs (that you are going to have coming out of your ears very shortly anyway).

And the criteria for Martains / Hudsons is pool numbers. If there are enough Martains in the pool to make the unit, then its Martains, if not, its Hudsons.

If you disband, you have to wait 3 months instead of 2 if you withdraw.
I prefer withdraw. And, for an unknown reason, when the groups come back,
they are full of pilots, trained pilots. Of course, it is only the case for allies.

[Yamato hugger]

Are they trained pilots that come from the pool (not counting the pilots they took with them of course)? I believe they are. I play Japs mostly. Pilots are critical to the Japs. They have planes coming out of their ears, but trained pilots are priceless.

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Are they trained pilots that come from the pool (not counting the pilots they took with them of course)? I believe they are. I play Japs mostly. Pilots are critical to the Japs. They have planes coming out of their ears, but trained pilots are priceless.

If you have a look at the screen above, you can see that the average experience is high: 75.
If the pilots were drawn from the dutch pool, let's imagine, nearly no pilots (i am keeping them for fighters) and even in the case of trained dutch pilot, their experience wouldn't have been higher than 55. The group came back at Sydney one month ago, it seems to me impossible to gain 20 experience's pts in only one month.

What is sure is, when i withdraw the group, there were no more than 2 or 3 planes (Dornier) and pilots, and when the group came back, it was full of planes (PBY) and pilots.
I suppose that the 5 or 6 new pilots had the same experience than the 2 or 3 old ones, probably around 70.

So, in 2 month, i gained free plane (PBY) and free pilots. But i can not proove that it is the case for each allied group withdrawn.

Like you, i am rather a japanese player and it doesn't work with japanese. For the japanese, the rule is right.

[Yamato hugger]

Well the average experience on THAT screen doesnt mean a thing. If you had 1 pilot with 75 experience and then added 7 others that have 25 experience, it still shows 75 on that screen.

I will have to look at that for 1.807 and AE because these should be drawing pilots from the pool. Pretty sure in AE they do but will double check that.

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Well the average experience on THAT screen doesnt mean a thing. If you had 1 pilot with 75 experience and then added 7 others that have 25 experience, it still shows 75 on that screen.

You don't believe me???

Ok, here is the list of pilots



And if it is not enough, i can post the same screen as above but for the next turn ... when i will receive it.[:'(]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

I will have to look at that for 1.807 and AE because these should be drawing pilots from the pool. Pretty sure in AE they do but will double check that.

If you can do that, good thing!! And do it for the planes too!

[Yamato hugger]

I didnt say I didnt believe you. I said the experience shown on that screen doesnt mean a thing.

[rominet]

OK, no problem, perhaps i misunderstood this expression.

I will pay attention to this problem. I have an other withdrawn airgroup which will
arrive in 19 days.





If you are interested in, i will post the results.[:)]

[Yamato hugger]

I am, thanks. Please do.

[Ambassador]

I've checked the experience of dutch fighter pilots that I have put on "ground strike academy" after filling them (mostly with untrained pilots) right after their transfer to SEA, thanks to WitPTracker.  In a little over a month, all of them went from the 20s to the higher end of the 40s, if not well into the 50s.  That's the difference between trained (from the pool) and untrained dutch pilots, and it only took a big month (40 days, but they didn't even fly all that time) of training.
Since withdrawing only requires two months to rebuild the unit rather than the three months of a disband, I'd say you end at the same point, pilot's-XP-wise, so it's not that important what experience those pilots do have when they arrive.  Except you have more planes as well as more pilots.
Off course, AE will change that, with it's different XP-rules.
 
The true interest is that in the case of the dutch squadrons, you don't lose anything by consolidating them.  Four 3-plane flights of Do-24 operating from the same base do the same as one 12-plane squadron, and at least you'll get three additional 12-plane squadrons 3 months later (taking the time to "train" them).  This multiplies the number of patrol planes by four in march '42 - and henceforth, you'll be able to replace the losses on most of them.  Four months earlier than if they had to wait to upgrade & fill.
 
 
 
rominet,
by any chance, did you test the recon planes ?  do you know what model they get when they come back, since the dutch recon planes get no replacements at all, but F-5A don't make their appearance until much later ?

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: rominet

I will pay attention to this problem. I have an other withdrawn airgroup which will
arrive in 19 days.





If you are interested in, i will post the results.[:)]

As promised, here are the results.

The 5/7/42, one day before arriving of the dutch reco unit GVT-2, there are 50 PBY in the pool and 3 dutch pilots in pool (with an average exp of 50)



The 5/8/42, the air group is arriving at Sydney with 8 PBY and 8 pilots (it should have been 5[&:]) with a great experience;





and there are still 3 dutch pilots in the pool.

Conclusion: the 8 PBY are free aand the 3 additionnal pilots too.[;)]

[RUPD3658]

Japanese reinforcements draw from the pool. Allies do not.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: rominet

Conclusion: the 8 PBY are free aand the 3 additionnal pilots too.[;)]

Very interesting, thanks for the test.[&o]

[Oldguard1970]

Hello Rominet,
 
Thank you for the information about your experience.  It is another "feature" in the game that isn't proper, but doesn't have too much impact.  I will live with it, but I will try not to exploit it.

[spence]

There ought to be some sort of limit on the obsolete a/c that the Allies start off with along with some sort of limit on Dutch (in particular) replacement pilots. But it should also be noted that a/c such as the P-40E appear as replacements for the duration of the game whereas IRL all of the production occurred in 1941 and 1942 (and not a one of them was sent to Europe although the replacement rate applies the same 70% (or whatever) decrease to P-40Es as it does to American reinforcements in general). The mechanics of the game force some ahistorical occurrences. The Allied Player could care less how many P-40Es he has in the pool in 1945 but he's still getting them then. In 1942 though, he will experience a serious lack of numers of effective Allied fighter a/c such as the P-40E. Guess that helps make the game a bit more interesting as a game.

[bradfordkay]

Allied reinforcement squadrons do not take aircraft from the pool, but if you don't have enough aircraft of the right type in the pool that squadron will arrive equipped with something else. It does force you to be pretty careful with accepting replacements for battered squadrons. 

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Allied reinforcement squadrons do not take aircraft from the pool, but if you don't have enough aircraft of the right type in the pool that squadron will arrive equipped with something else. It does force you to be pretty careful with accepting replacements for battered squadrons. 

Absolutely right.

I made the test with the Hurricane air unit appearing early 42 at Aden.
If there are some Hurricane in pool (i don't know exactly the number required), the air groups are arriving with the good planes (the pool remains intact of course).
If there are no Hurricane in pool, the air groups are arriving with Lysander[:(] (the Lysander's poll remains intact too).

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970

Thank you for the information about your experience. It is another "feature" in the game that isn't proper, but doesn't have too much impact.

It depends. Don't forgett that it is valuable for every allied air unit, not only the Dutch one. Playing my own mod (Spence doesn't like it very much but i made some corrections in allied favor since our last game[;)]), this "withdraw technic" is nearly indispensable at the beginning of the war, especially with P-40E and B-17C because of their bad replacement rate. As the war is progressing and replacement rate increasing, you can forgett it to use all your air groups on map.

ORIGINAL: Spence

There ought to be some sort of limit on the obsolete a/c that the Allies start off with along with some sort of limit on Dutch (in particular) replacement pilots. But it should also be noted that a/c such as the P-40E appear as replacements for the duration of the game whereas IRL all of the production occurred in 1941 and 1942 (and not a one of them was sent to Europe although the replacement rate applies the same 70% (or whatever) decrease to P-40Es as it does to American reinforcements in general). The mechanics of the game force some ahistorical occurrences. The Allied Player could care less how many P-40Es he has in the pool in 1945 but he's still getting them then. In 1942 though, he will experience a serious lack of numers of effective Allied fighter a/c such as the P-40E. Guess that helps make the game a bit more interesting as a game.

Hi Spence

I have partly solved this problem by putting P-40E factories on map (in USA of course).
So, in spring 43, this factorie will upgrade in P-40N and in spring 44, in P-51B and others P-51 versions later.

[EUBanana]

The only thing keeping the ROCAF in P43 Lancers in my CHS game is that I keep withdrawing and getting free P43s every 60 days.  They dont last long in combat and their replacement rate is 10.

[bradfordkay]

rominet wrote: " I made the test with the Hurricane air unit appearing early 42 at Aden.
If there are some Hurricane in pool (i don't know exactly the number required), the air groups are arriving with the good planes (the pool remains intact of course)."

The number required to be in the pool is the number of aircraft in the arriving squadron. If the squadron needs 24 aircraft then there needs to be 24 aircraft of that particular type in the pool in order for it to arrive correctly equipped. In my experience if you have even one less than that number, the squadron will arrive with an alternative aircraft.

[rominet]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

rominet wrote: " I made the test with the Hurricane air unit appearing early 42 at Aden.
If there are some Hurricane in pool (i don't know exactly the number required), the air groups are arriving with the good planes (the pool remains intact of course)."

The number required to be in the pool is the number of aircraft in the arriving squadron. If the squadron needs 24 aircraft then there needs to be 24 aircraft of that particular type in the pool in order for it to arrive correctly equipped. In my experience if you have even one less than that number, the squadron will arrive with an alternative aircraft.

Thanks for information. It is logical.

[khyberbill]

If there are some Hurricane in pool (i don't know exactly the number required), the air groups are arriving with the good planes (the pool remains intact of course)."

The number required to be in the pool is the number of aircraft in the arriving squadron. If the squadron needs 24 aircraft then there needs to be 24 aircraft of that particular type in the pool in order for it to arrive correctly equipped. In my experience if you have even one less than that number, the squadron will arrive with an alternative aircraft.

What will happen if there are no alternative aircraft? Right now my US fighter pools are empty. Will I get C-47s? Dive bombers?