AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons

[Local Yokel]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

So 100 ships disbanded in a size 1 port means a BB TF can come by and have free target practice (if they know they are there). OUCH!!

But only what the screenshot from the manual done by Joe can use the port (size 1) to load and unload as long as they are less than those restrictions. OK, I "think" I have some understanding of this.  

OTOH, if I have interpreted recent posts correctly, those 100 ships could be disbanded in a size 0 port and be immune to all submarine attacks except those conducted by midgets.

By the same token, if you put some of those ships into a task force and order that task force to undock then they will be fully exposed to any submarine's attack, notwithstanding that they are within the hex containing the lagoon at Truk or East Loch at Pearl.

This is going to take some getting used to.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
those 100 ships could be disbanded in a size 0 port

Exaggeration is wll well and good sir - but you go too far - we have no level-0 ports!
[:D]

[stuman]

" lol...I try to not do anything in the game that COULDN'T be done in real life...not everyone does...

Dec 7th starts a ramp up...on the west coast for example, I don't start more than two AKs loading each port, each day...then this doubles after a week...then doubles a week later...I just don't figure that the San Fransisco started loading 200 ships the following morning of the attack on Dec 7th. There had to be a period in which stuff like this ramped up.

It would be nice to have real world restrictions but I couldn't program it. I take what y'all come up with and enjoy in my own style.

Semper Fi,
Lee "


I generally take the same approach. I don't really fret over it, but do try to be sensible about it.

[Local Yokel]

OK, I was probably taking 'disbanding anywhere' too far[;)]. But I still think there's a case for drawing a distinction between a port's cargo handling capacity and its harbour defence capability.

An out-of-theatre case in point would be Scapa Flow. Not exactly in the same league as Liverpool or London in cargo handling facilities, but against submarines shut tighter than a duck's backside, at any rate after Prien's visit.

Make no mistake, I wholeheartedly approve changes that take account of the limits on a port's ability to shift cargo in and out of ships. I also recognise that, within the existing game's framework, this may only be possible by treating undocked ships as being outside the defended anchorage. But if that's the case it should be acknowledged as a compromise, because there's no necessary correlation between the number of pierside berths and the extent of the anchorage's defences.

[Dili]

.I just don't figure that the San Fransisco started loading 200 ships the following morning of the attack on Dec 7th.

Scarcity of supply at start will make that impossible

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Dili

.I just don't figure that the San Fransisco started loading 200 ships the following morning of the attack on Dec 7th.

Scarcity of supply at start will make that impossible

Thats true. Some of the west coast bases are already in the light orange supply stage. Last I saw, the supplies on the east coast lose 20% moving to the west coast. This may have changed.



It takes the "sleeping giant" a little time to wake up, use the facilities, shave, make coffee, read the paper, ect before he can get down to business [:D]

[hbrsvl]

jwilkerson-If I have TFs in a port and try to load the different TFs in excess of the port's capicity, will there be a "popup" saying I can't do this, or will the TFs just not load?

Also, if there are 3 TFs in a port and the third exceeds capicity, will the other 2 load, or are all 3 shut down?

Anyone know where I can get a brain capacity extender? I'm going to need it.

Thanks, Hugh Browne

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

jwilkerson-If I have TFs in a port and try to load the different TFs in excess of the port's capicity, will there be a "popup" saying I can't do this, or will the TFs just not load?

Also, if there are 3 TFs in a port and the third exceeds capicity, will the other 2 load, or are all 3 shut down?

Anyone know where I can get a brain capacity extender? I'm going to need it.

Thanks, Hugh Browne

Allow me to try to clear up some confusion. From this attached screenshot, the top is a base display. You can see that the total tonnage of docked shipping is 6860 tons, the port maximum is 172,000 tons, and the single ship maximum size is 78,000 tons.

The 2nd example is a TF forming. What I did is just like I said I do in my AAR, that is form a TF with a single ship, and then dock it. As you add ships to the TF in the upper right of the TF that is being formed (bottom display) it will tell you how much tonnage you have in the TF and the remaining space at the port. Also, if a ship wont fit into the TF, its name turns white (middle display) and you wont be allowed to add it. Now, if you dont dock the TF first, if you know how much space is available at the dock you can watch the size and add ships to it, but there will be nothing from stopping you from over-loading a TF (in this case, the port can accommodate 24,000 tons, if you go over that, you cant dock the TF. This doesnt mean you cant load or unload it.

Don did something nice here and assumes that ships will be brought into port and unloaded (within size limits of course, a 20,000 ton ships wouldnt be able to unload at this dock regardless) So SOME of the ships will load/unload at "docked" speed, while the remainder will do so at the "undocked" speed. And thats another thing, SOME things can load regardless of if the TF is docked or undocked, just as some things can unload regardless.

For you folks that can read, there is the manual. For the rest of us, its trial and error [:D]

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

jwilkerson-If I have TFs in a port and try to load the different TFs in excess of the port's capicity, will there be a "popup" saying I can't do this, or will the TFs just not load?

Neither. The load (and unload) routines will load what they can each turn and keep cranking at it until all is loaded. If, during loading (in the execution phase), port ops capacity is exceeded by one TF and there are more that have not loaded anything, a message is generated saying that TF is waiting loading. TFs not loaded (or unloaded) in one turn will be processed again in the next turn, etc.

But wait, there's more. Ports have docking limitations as well as cargo handling limitations. Dock TFs load (and unload) in preference to undocked ones.

Also, if there are 3 TFs in a port and the third exceeds capicity, will the other 2 load, or are all 3 shut down?

If the TFs loading/unloading exceed the ports daily cargo handling capacity, load/unload operations up to the capacity limit will be done. No shut down, just a slow down.

Anyone know where I can get a brain capacity extender? I'm going to need it.

Thanks, Hugh Browne

I recommend scotch.


This thing is really simple and straight forward.

1. Ports have limited docking capacity. Think of this as pier space.
2. Ports have limited cargo handling capacity - piers, cranes, access road, warehouses.
3. Ports have a "cargo master". He (OK, it) will get all the loading/unloading operations done somehow.
3a. If you don't dock any ships, the "cargo master" will simulate rotating ships into the docks and loading/unloading.
4. You control priorities by docking TFs.
4a. You can split/combine TFs to get your priority load/unloads dockable if you want (but you don't have to).

5. You can extend port cargo handling capabilities by getting some Naval Support to the port. This does NOT increase dock space but it increases both docked (simulating stevedores) and undocked (simulating lighters) cargo handling.
6. Under certain circumstances, the port daily cargo handling limit can be exceeded. This is primarily when using amphibious capable ships at small ports. That is, ships that can land stuff over the beach.

and
7. Plan ahead, PPPPPP.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

7. Plan ahead, PPPPPP.

For you non-military types, this means "prior planning prevents piss poor performance".

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

7. Plan ahead, PPPPPP.

For you non-military types, this means "prior planning prevents piss poor performance".

Right, except the first word should be "proper" (at least in the Navy).

[Yamato hugger]

Squids. What do they know? [:D]

[Chad Harrison]

Okay, so looks like my old habits of 100 ship TF's later in the war (ie. once KB is dead) are gone [:D]

So let me see if I understand this correctly:

1. Lets say that I go ahead and form a TF of 100 liberty class AK's and sail it to San Francisco.
2. I order the TF to load supplies.
3. Since SF is a level 9 port (**can it built to 10?, or same as WitP**), and a Liberty class ship is ~14,000 tons (**I think, can we get a screenshot of one? [:D]**), and the port has a docked capacity of 172,000 tons, the port can not handle all the ships at once.
4. So the port will handle 12 liberty ships (168,000 tons) at a time with the docked loading speed, and the rest will be loaded at the non-docked loading speed.
5. Once the first 12 docked ships are fully loaded, they will be rotated with the next 12 and so on until all 100 are loaded.

Is this how it works?

Thanks in advance!

Chad

[John Lansford]

ISTM there's now three 'conditions' ships will find themselves in when they enter a port.
 
1) Docked: they can unload/load/refuel/rearm as the port's first priority; still in a TF and vulnerable to SF and air attacks, protected from most sub attacks
 
2) Not docked; they can unload/load/refuel/rearm but only when the port finds time to get to them; still vulnerable to SF and air attacks, as well as most sub attacks
 
3) Disbanded; basically, they're anchored somewhere and just killing time.  No loading/unloading/refueling/rearming taking place, only attacked by "port attacks".
 
Question: how does repair fit into these categories?  Can a docked ship get repaired, and does it do so at a higher priority to a non-docked ship?  What about the disbanded ships?  Do they get repaired or do you have to assign repair assets to them (or any of the others for that matter)?

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Okay, so looks like my old habits of 100 ship TF's later in the war (ie. once KB is dead) are gone [:D]

So let me see if I understand this correctly:

1. Lets say that I go ahead and form a TF of 100 liberty class AK's and sail it to San Francisco.
2. I order the TF to load supplies.
3. Since SF is a level 9 port (**can it built to 10?, or same as WitP**), and a Liberty class ship is ~14,000 tons (**I think, can we get a screenshot of one? [:D]**), and the port has a docked capacity of 172,000 tons, the port can not handle all the ships at once.
4. So the port will handle 12 liberty ships (168,000 tons) at a time with the docked loading speed, and the rest will be loaded at the non-docked loading speed.
5. Once the first 12 docked ships are fully loaded, they will be rotated with the next 12 and so on until all 100 are loaded.

Is this how it works?

Thanks in advance!

Chad

Close enough. BTW, you cant build a level 10 port, in AE or in WitP. If they start at 10, then they are 10, but no port (or airfield) can be built to a 10.

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

ISTM there's now three 'conditions' ships will find themselves in when they enter a port.

1) Docked: they can unload/load/refuel/rearm as the port's first priority; still in a TF and vulnerable to SF and air attacks, protected from most sub attacks

2) Not docked; they can unload/load/refuel/rearm but only when the port finds time to get to them; still vulnerable to SF and air attacks, as well as most sub attacks

3) Disbanded; basically, they're anchored somewhere and just killing time. No loading/unloading/refueling/rearming taking place, only attacked by "port attacks".

Question: how does repair fit into these categories? Can a docked ship get repaired, and does it do so at a higher priority to a non-docked ship? What about the disbanded ships? Do they get repaired or do you have to assign repair assets to them (or any of the others for that matter)?

Repair is a whole different kettle of fish. I dont have any damaged ships in port so I cant show this (yet). Im sure it will come. If Tree does an AAR, maybe ask it there.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison
Okay, so looks like my old habits of 100 ship TF's later in the war (ie. once KB is dead) are gone [:D]

So let me see if I understand this correctly:

1. Lets say that I go ahead and form a TF of 100 liberty class AK's and sail it to San Francisco.
2. I order the TF to load supplies.
3. Since SF is a level 9 port (**can it built to 10?, or same as WitP**), and a Liberty class ship is ~14,000 tons (**I think, can we get a screenshot of one? [:D]**), and the port has a docked capacity of 172,000 tons, the port can not handle all the ships at once.
4. So the port will handle 12 liberty ships (168,000 tons) at a time with the docked loading speed, and the rest will be loaded at the non-docked loading speed.
5. Once the first 12 docked ships are fully loaded, they will be rotated with the next 12 and so on until all 100 are loaded.

Is this how it works?

Thanks in advance!

Chad

Basically, yes. But be careful with ‘tonnage’. Game tonnage for merchant and auxiliary ships is a function of USMC Dspl(Lt) or US Navy Dspl(lt) factored by a size block. An EC2 Liberty has a rated tonnage of about 6500, so perhaps 25 can ‘dock’ at a Level-9.

A TF that is too big to dock, is too big to dock. Code has some capability for loading rotation, but it’s not efficient. Best bet is to subdivide the Giga TF into 20 – 25 ship chunks. This is more code friendly.

As YH says, can't 'build to a 10.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford
Question: how does repair fit into these categories?  Can a docked ship get repaired, and does it do so at a higher priority to a non-docked ship?  What about the disbanded ships?  Do they get repaired or do you have to assign repair assets to them (or any of the others for that matter)?

Remember, this is just a game. “Basically” yes.

A ship in a TF will repair in accord with the ‘damage control’ routine. The routing does not know or care where the TF is or what it is doing. It could be in a storm off Patagonia, or sitting in SF harbor, but a ship is either in a TF, or it is not.

If it is not (i.e., anchored in port) certain “basic” repair options are available: Repairs can be done at anchor, by the ship crew; Repairs can be done at anchor, by the ship crew assisted by Repair Tenders (if any such are currently in-port); Repairs can be done at dockside, by the crew, assisted by port facilities, and Repairs can be done any available Repair Shipyard (if any such are available at the port).

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Basically, yes. But be careful with ‘tonnage’. Game tonnage for merchant and auxiliary ships is a function of USMC Dspl(Lt) or US Navy Dspl(lt) factored by a size block. An EC2 Liberty has a rated tonnage of about 6500, so perhaps 25 can ‘dock’ at a Level-9.

A TF that is too big to dock, is too big to dock. Code has some capability for loading rotation, but it’s not efficient. Best bet is to subdivide the Giga TF into 20 – 25 ship chunks. This is more code friendly.

As YH says, can't 'build to a 10.

[/quote]

As always, thanks both John and Yammy for the replies. I knew you couldnt build to 10 in vanilla WitP, just wanted to make sure it wasnt changed for AE.

[Q-Ball]

This all makes sense to me. Pier space is totally different from anchorage space. In AE, sounds like all you get by "anchoring" is that you won't consume fuel or suffer Ops damage.

[Ol_Dog]

I believe JWE said that the ship could do minor repair with the ship's crew if it was anchored, not in a task force.