Managing the Japanese Merchant Fleet

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

OK, further observations:
I don't know whether they are going to change this, but by now, the mines are far too few. Useing all minelayers would mean one can only use them once evers 3-4 months (IIRC). Consequently, it makes sense to reduce the number of CMs and CMcs. Sokuten e.g. make a fair short range escort.

Yep, it now makes sense to use minelaying ships for other than laying mines. In WITP the big minelaying cruisers like Okinoshima, Tsugaru, etc, were too valuable to do anything but lay mines.

Now, I think they are better used as Escort ships. Same with the Sokutens, may as well use them as escorts. I have noticed some of the IJN minelaying ships now carry DC racks, which they did not in WITP other than the Sokutens.

[Mike Solli]

I've come to the same conclusion about CMs.  Note that about 4 of them (the big ones) can carry small numbers of troops and cargo too.

[Historiker]

What are the AGs good for?

A general purpose auxiliary with several uses. As a base ship, can tend small craft – performing repair and rearming (not including torpedoes). Can also carry cargo if used in cargo Task Forces. Note: previous AG is now LB.

What does that mean? How many will be needed?

[vonSchnitter]

Re. converting transports to ASW capable bottoms.

Whats the use?

Transport conversions to ASW vessels would of course increase general ASW assets, but to what quality of ASW bottoms ?
Low speed: 10 knots range
Low rating: ASW 2 ?
Low experience !
What can be expected of them ?

As far as I can see, most conversions are at par with the slow MSWs of WitP vintage. Easy targets for subs.
The conversions lack the "punch" both in ASW as in surface combat - to fend off subs on the surface.

Including them in transport TFs as "escorts" will just slow down the TFs due to slow speed and low range (need to refuel) - and slowing down a TF just increases exposure to sub attacks.

Use them in "Hunter/Killer Groups" ? Of their own - since faster ASW ships will have to adjust their rate of sailing to the speed of the slowest - exposing them ? Hope for some training up ? (If so, how to facilitate)

Some test scenario would be of value.
Cheers

[Q-Ball]

Testing would help on the PB conversions; I am not convinced myself a large conversion is initially necessary. Certainly the Kiso and To'su conversions are painfully slooooooow.

One thing for sure: Unescorted merchant ships are getting slaughtered by subs. I used to drive merchies all the time without escort in low-sub areas, but those days are OVER. I assume any crap PB with a deck gun is enough to at least keep subs from attacking on the surface; is this correct? Certainly enough escorts are needed for THIS.

The SC's are better H-K boats than they were in WITP, though the short legs are a problem. I would have a TF of these around every shipping hub.

I have noticed in the OOB there are alot of classes, old DDs, W-1 class MSWs, minlayers, etc. that convert to "E". I will probably do ALL of them as I can.

[Mike Solli]

I figure the Japanese need all the escorts they can get.  Yeah, they'll lose a lot.  That's inevitable.  If the ships are converted early, they'll have more time to gain experience for later in the war when they really need it.  That being said, I'm not sure when I'll do conversions.  I'm still not sure of the initial capability of the IJN and what it needs to do in the first few months of the war.  I suspect I'll convert as I need things, trying to plan ahead.  Yeah, I know, easier said than done.  I'm concerned that if too many conversions occur, there may not be enough capability for hauling stuff.

[Mike Solli]

There's one thing that hasn't been discussed here.  Escorts have many more uses than keeping the merchant fleet out of trouble.  There's KB and the surface combat fleet to escort too.  Granted, this will be done by the modern DDs, but that takes out a lot of very good escorts.  Much of what remains is mediocre at best.  That tells me that we will need a lot of mediocre stuff to keep our industry alive.
 
Q-Ball, I also hope that escorts will keep subs below the surface.  I don't know if that was changed or not.

[Shark7]

I don't think you can ever have enough escorts as Japan. ASW hunter killer groups patrolling the 'likely' sub operation areas would probably be a very good idea as well.

[vonSchnitter]

Just an idea on protecting convoys:

This is "enspired" by a post by jwilkerson - or someone else in the know.

The poster makes a remark on using a surface combat TF to follow/escort an Air Combat TF as an effective means to "screen" the air tf from enemy surface TF interference - pretty much in line with contemporary (early war) doctrine?

How about a small surface or ASW TF (whichever works best) to screen a Transport TF - as a means to deal with the fact that subs will "react" to surface ships - i.e. follow any encountered TF?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter

Just an idea on protecting convoys:

This is "enspired" by a post by jwilkerson - or someone else in the know.

The poster makes a remark on using a surface combat TF to follow/escort an Air Combat TF as an effective means to "screen" the air tf from enemy surface TF interference - pretty much in line with contemporary (early war) doctrine?

How about a small surface or ASW TF (whichever works best) to screen a Transport TF - as a means to deal with the fact that subs will "react" to surface ships - i.e. follow any encountered TF?

I know I already do that with my invasion fleets. I'll set up 1 or 2 ASW TFs to plod right along with the transports. You'd be surprised how effective it can be.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

There's one thing that hasn't been discussed here.  Escorts have many more uses than keeping the merchant fleet out of trouble.  There's KB and the surface combat fleet to escort too.  Granted, this will be done by the modern DDs, but that takes out a lot of very good escorts.  Much of what remains is mediocre at best.  That tells me that we will need a lot of mediocre stuff to keep our industry alive.

Q-Ball, I also hope that escorts will keep subs below the surface.  I don't know if that was changed or not.

That's easy.
You compare the data of the DDs with each other and then make a plan:
a) Which DDs and TBs are expended for surface action groups
b) Which are best used as APDs
c) Which are the best Es
d) Which should stay DDs

Now you just make a timetable when which class has to be converted to which type to provide the big TFs with DDs and fast Es at any time without neglecting the conversion possibility. [:)]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I don't think you can ever have enough escorts as Japan. ASW hunter killer groups patrolling the 'likely' sub operation areas would probably be a very good idea as well.

Yamato Hugger described how he used his escorts a while ago before the game came out. Something like this:

6x CL TF each with 2 CL and 4 DD (Mutsuki and Minekaze)

2x DD TF each with 5 Shiratsuyu
1x DD TF with 6 Hatsushima
1x DD TF with 5 Momo

3 Invasion TFs each with 1 Katori and a total of 18 Ansyu and 20 E

APD Fast transport TF with 5 APD and 41 Nav Gd Bn - used to clean up minor ungarrisoned bases.

Convoy Escorts:
34 Ansyu
31 Kiso
34 To'so

Surface TF:
1x 4 TB
3x 3 TB

ASW Patrols (in 3-4 ship TFs):
23x SC (Ch models)
24x SC (CHa models)

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

There's one thing that hasn't been discussed here.  Escorts have many more uses than keeping the merchant fleet out of trouble.  There's KB and the surface combat fleet to escort too.  Granted, this will be done by the modern DDs, but that takes out a lot of very good escorts.  Much of what remains is mediocre at best.  That tells me that we will need a lot of mediocre stuff to keep our industry alive.

Q-Ball, I also hope that escorts will keep subs below the surface.  I don't know if that was changed or not.

That's easy.
You compare the data of the DDs with each other and then make a plan:
a) Which DDs and TBs are expended for surface action groups
b) Which are best used as APDs
c) Which are the best Es
d) Which should stay DDs

Now you just make a timetable when which class has to be converted to which type to provide the big TFs with DDs and fast Es at any time without neglecting the conversion possibility. [:)]

Yeah, that's easy. [:D]

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I don't think you can ever have enough escorts as Japan. ASW hunter killer groups patrolling the 'likely' sub operation areas would probably be a very good idea as well.

Don't forget LBA on ASW duty. If there is a group with high experience in every major airfield in the DEI as well as in the PI, Formosa and western Japan, you should feel quite safe with some additional ASW groups.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

There's one thing that hasn't been discussed here.  Escorts have many more uses than keeping the merchant fleet out of trouble.  There's KB and the surface combat fleet to escort too.  Granted, this will be done by the modern DDs, but that takes out a lot of very good escorts.  Much of what remains is mediocre at best.  That tells me that we will need a lot of mediocre stuff to keep our industry alive.

Q-Ball, I also hope that escorts will keep subs below the surface.  I don't know if that was changed or not.

That's easy.
You compare the data of the DDs with each other and then make a plan:
a) Which DDs and TBs are expended for surface action groups
b) Which are best used as APDs
c) Which are the best Es
d) Which should stay DDs

Now you just make a timetable when which class has to be converted to which type to provide the big TFs with DDs and fast Es at any time without neglecting the conversion possibility. [:)]

Yeah, that's easy. [:D]

It is. I'm not far from haveing this complete. I also already know what's the best use with each kind of ship, which is the most efficiant conversion...
Some calculating, some work et voilà

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: Historiker

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I don't think you can ever have enough escorts as Japan. ASW hunter killer groups patrolling the 'likely' sub operation areas would probably be a very good idea as well.

Don't forget LBA on ASW duty. If there is a group with high experience in every major airfield in the DEI as well as in the PI, Formosa and western Japan, you should feel quite safe with some additional ASW groups.

Yes... you are correct here... some of the FP units in the Home Islands could also prove useful in this regard.

[vonSchnitter]

Hm, interesting.

Shark7 - just my experience.

Any conclusive tests notwithstanding, it looks like Max Horton got it right ?

The textbook approach:

Match transport speeds in a convoy - the faster the safer.
The more the merrier - less targets to follow - and to protect. The base line of convoys.

Establish Escort TFs (either surface or ASW or both) to screen convoys all the way or partial (the new meeting in mid ocean function) making good use of the new port repair/AG facilities.
Escort TFs either augment or replace asw/surface assets as an integral part of a convoy.
Permanent escort TFs may receive a good flag officer for training/motivation - saving PPs.
Escort TFs need to have matching speeds for convoys,

Escort TFs are supposed to fend off Sub attacks - not sink the Us.

Hunter/Killer Groups are stationed at choke points - just to get them. Probably using the slower ASW bottoms.

Suitable air assets are used for ASW/Naval patrol - ASW/Nav training, more bombs, MAD, Radar.

Long Range Searches to avoid Subs ...


Missing something ?

Cheers

[dasboot1960]

Reading this makes me soooooooooo happy to be playing the allies. Poor Mr. Guberman(my brother) has finally consented to pbm now that AE is out. We actually completed an SPI WitP in the old days. (I know he wants revenge) Best of luck Gubi - hope your head doesn't explode......

[Historiker]

Can somebody tell me what the good effect of AGs is?

[vonSchnitter]

AGs ?

The manual says, those are general purpose auxiliaries - performing repair and rearming of small craft. (no torps)

Guess, it takes some testing to find out what small craft means or what sort of repair services are rendered - considering the new types of possible damage.

Anyway - looks like small ports get a boost - just like the old "coaling points" of pre WW1 vintage perhaps.