2nd Yokosuka SNLF

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Brady

Caught up with Taki over at Axis History:

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Yokosuka 2nd SNLF
by Akira Takizawa on 15 Aug 2009 19:52

> Was this formation Para capable?

No

> Thier are some referances that mention that it was trianed at the same time as the 1st and 3rd, but never conducted a para drop.

They are wrong.

Taki
Akira Takizawa
Member

That sounds like Taki - so we stay as we are.

Thanks Brady.

[bradfordkay]

It is a Marine Paratrooper Symbol. Note the wings below the anchor. I know... it's very tiny. 

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

To my old eyes it looks like a marine symbol [:(]

It is a Marine Symbol - combined with a para symbol giving us a para-marine symbol! These were Japanese Naval Parachute infantry.

[PzB74]

Obviously I need a bigger screen and / or bigger - newer eyes, cause I didn't see the para sign either [8|]

Taki also replied to my mail and said it wasn't para trained, so I guess there will be no more para units for the Japs [:'(]

[Andy Mac]

Scen 2 has a Regiment sized Para unit that I made up for the purpose if that helps....

[Tanaka]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_S ... ing_Forces

In 1941, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF were converted to parachute units.

http://valkyriemovie.wikia.com/wiki/1st ... osuka_SNLF

The Imperial Japanese Navy fielded marine paratroopers during World War II. The troops were officially part of the Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF or Rikusentai), the navy's marine corps. They came from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Yokosuka SNLFs.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Japanese_Special ... ing_Forces

In 1941, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF were converted to parachute units. They conducted more combat drops than Japanese Army parachute units during World War II. The SNLF paratroopers were used during the attack on Celebes, to much lauded success by the Imperial government.

http://www.tripatlas.com/Special_Naval_Landing_Forces

Yokosuka Naval Base

1st Yokosuka SNLF (Parachute trained)

2nd Yokosuka SNLF ,(Parachute unit) there were two of these,the first was disbanded after its operations in British Borneo were completed,and the second was raised in June 1943 from 1st Yokosuka SNLF personnel. It spent the war on Nauru.

3rd Yokosuka SNLF (Parachute trained)—was later mergered with the 1st Yokosuko SNL

4th Yokosuka SNLF-At Hainan Naval District, 3rd China Fleet

''Butai Yokosuka'': the IJN combined the 1st Yokosuka and 3rd Yokosuka SNLF's into one force for larger operations. Disbanded in late 1943.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:JjN ... =firefox-a

The 1st Yokosuka SNLF (Special Naval Landing Force) was formed 20 September 1941, at Yokosuka Naval District, round a battalion of 520 paratroopers, this force had taken Menado as part of the Sasebo Raiding Force. The 2nd Yokosuka also formed at the Yokosuka port area, 15 October 1941, with 746 men and trained as such, took no part in any airborne operations and became an island defensive base unit. The 3rd Yokosuka, again formed at the Naval facility consisting of 849 men on 20 November 1942, was used as marine infantry through the Philipines and two months later was involved in the Dutch West Timor invasion as airborne inserted infantry originating from the captured air base at Kendari.The lightly armed Naval parachutist units were an attachment to Marine raiding forces, assigned as part of the IJN Combined Fleet. The three SNLF formations were trained specially as paratroopers to support amphibious landings and not meant for entanglement in heavy pitched land battles, plus wore the badge with an emblem of two crossed parachutes and anchor topped with a small flower. Another naval parachute outfit of the Axis was the Italian San Marco marines of the Regia Marina that trained at the Tarquinia Parachute School, also underwater specialist sabotage training, and had NP (Noutatori Paracadutisti) emblem on their military designated badge. Although Japanese Naval infantry basic training was different to the Japanese Army, all three Yokosuka units were trained at the Army Base on Kanto Plain. By 20 May 1942 the two veteran parachute dropped and battle depleted Yokosuka units were re-assigned to the 2nd Southern Expeditionary Fleet. Shortly afterwards the 1st Yokosuka returned to its namesake Naval base and what was left of the 3rd Yokosuka landed elements on unoccupied islands of the eastern Indonesian archipelago, and was returned to Japan by the end of October 1942.


Is this wrong?

[Tanaka]

From my view of all of this is that this unit was paradrop trained but did not actually paradrop in WWII. I would have to agree with the first poster in that it should not prevent the player from using a para trained unit to paradrop even if they never did in the actual war...

I believe that is what Taki is saying is that they never paradropped but he did not say they were not trained to do so...

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

From my view of all of this is that this unit was paradrop trained but did not actually paradrop in WWII. I would have to agree with the first poster in that it should not prevent the player from using a para trained unit to paradrop even if they never did in the actual war...

I believe that is what Taki is saying is that they never paradropped but he did not say they were not trained to do so...

> Thier are some referances that mention that it was trianed at the same time as the 1st and 3rd, but never conducted a para drop.

They are wrong.

Taki
Akira Takizawa
Member

[jwilkerson]

Taki's book clearly states that only 1st and 3rd YOK were para units. We've asked him twice to confirm and he did. What more do you guys want? If you have a new source which states a believable primary source - bring it forward. Listing out the sites that reference sources we've already mentioned like Underwood isn't adding anything to the discussion. We either need NEW data, or we stay like we are. As historians (even amatuer ones) we are required to be true to our sources! [:)]

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Taki's book clearly states that only 1st and 3rd YOK were para units. We've asked him twice to confirm and he did. What more do you guys want? If you have a new source which states a believable primary source - bring it forward. Listing out the sites that reference sources we've already mentioned like Underwood isn't adding anything to the discussion. We either need NEW data, or we stay like we are. As historians (even amatuer ones) we are required to be true to our sources! [:)]

Thanks J! Ok I surrender. Understood.[:)] Thanks for putting up with us. I appreciate all the hard work you guys put into this fantastic game! Please consider our passion a compliment! It does look like Taki would know his stuff! Just so confusing with all that other contradicting info out there...

[Blind Sniper]

Thanks for this thread guys, very interesting!
My compliments to the AE Team for a job so well done [:)]

[stuman]

Wait, I am confused. Is the 2nd a para unit or not ? Can we please reopen this discussion ?








[;)]

[windlessmill7777]

Hi, I'm a Japanese WitP and Matrix's Wargame fan from Tokyo, Japan, and this argument is very interested to me.

OK, from my conclusion, Taki & AE dev team are totally right. In the beginning of the war, Japan had only 3 units which have airborne capability. IJN Yokosuka 1st SNLF, 3rd SNLF and IJA 1st Teishindan.
As far as I know, There is NO fact such as Yokosuka 2nd SNLF had ever trained as paratroopers or had ability of airborne operations in 1941.
I don't know why English wiki was written such wrong description.

This is Japanese IJN Airborne force story WIKI (but you could not read it on Japanese font installed).

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5% ... 8%E9%9A%8A
And these descriptions are correct as my knowledge from domestic military books (maybe most of them are  
not translated by English) that I ever read for years.

Try to summarize...

November, 1940, After the success of German airborne operations in Europe, Japanese naval minister ordered research of paratroop to IJN as the most confidential project.
This project called "Dai 1001Jikken (1001st Experiment)" was lead by Yokosuka Kaigun Koukutai (Yokosuka Naval Air Wing) and tried to research such as tower-used para drop experimentation , how to transport paratroopers, weapons, ammunition, supply and real para drop from airplane(sadly it happend some dead accidents ) .  
This project had completed in May 1941.

August 1941, the members of "Dai 1001Jikken" were transfered Tateyama naval district in Chiba near by Tokyo.  
Gunreibu (IJN's top military controller, not "Daihonei") ordered 1500 paratroopers training in 2 months.
September 20, 1941, Yokosuka 1st SNLF was organized at Tateyama district (NOT Yokosuka district) and only trained as paratroopers.
November 20, About 1500 paratroopers of Yokosuka 1st SNLF divided as 1st and 3rd SNLF.
Transport airplanes of Tateyama Kaigun Koukutai(Tateyama Naval Air Wing) also called "1001st force"that belonged to Dai 1 Koukutai( IJN 1st Air Wing later called 752 ku) and supported paratroop units.

November 20, 1941, Yokosuka 1st SNLF has 849 soldiers included 750 paratroopers, consisited of 3 companies and small artillery, and same as 3rd SNLF. that's the history.

Thanks to read and hope this helps.

trivia 1: On the way Menado raid, One F1M2 PETE from IJN AV Mizuho misfired transporters squadron of Yokosuka 1st SNLF and shot down one plane(all soldiers and crew were KIA). the pilot knew the fact and tried to suicide for his failure. But his commander said "You must not die but struggle more and more offered all your life. it is only way of your atonement for victims." and stopped his suicide.

trivia 2: The battle of Yokosuka 1st and 3rd SNLF were later filmed as hand-drawn animation story (charactars replaced by pretty animals) called "Momotaro : Sora no Shinpei"(1944).
This animation film was so much inspired by Walt Disney's Fantasia and became one of ancestors of so-called Japanese ANIME.  

[Gilbert]

Hi Windlessmill,

Domo Arigato for these interesting infos

Regards
Gilbert

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Windlessmill

Hi, I'm a Japanese WitP and Matrix's Wargame fan from Tokyo, Japan, and this argument is very interested to me.

OK, from my conclusion, Taki & AE dev team are totally right. In the beginning of the war, Japan had only 3 units which have airborne capability. IJN Yokosuka 1st SNLF, 3rd SNLF and IJA 1st Teishindan.
As far as I know, There is NO fact such as Yokosuka 2nd SNLF had ever trained as paratroopers or had ability of airborne operations in 1941.
I don't know why English wiki was written such wrong description.

This is Japanese IJN Airborne force story WIKI (but you could not read it on Japanese font installed).

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5% ... 8%E9%9A%8A
And these descriptions are correct as my knowledge from domestic military books (maybe most of them are  
not translated by English) that I ever read for years.

Try to summarize...

November, 1940, After the success of German airborne operations in Europe, Japanese naval minister ordered research of paratroop to IJN as the most confidential project.
This project called "Dai 1001Jikken (1001st Experiment)" was lead by Yokosuka Kaigun Koukutai (Yokosuka Naval Air Wing) and tried to research such as tower-used para drop experimentation , how to transport paratroopers, weapons, ammunition, supply and real para drop from airplane(sadly it happend some dead accidents ) .  
This project had completed in May 1941.

August 1941, the members of "Dai 1001Jikken" were transfered Tateyama naval district in Chiba near by Tokyo.  
Gunreibu (IJN's top military controller, not "Daihonei") ordered 1500 paratroopers training in 2 months.
September 20, 1941, Yokosuka 1st SNLF was organized at Tateyama district (NOT Yokosuka district) and only trained as paratroopers.
November 20, About 1500 paratroopers of Yokosuka 1st SNLF divided as 1st and 3rd SNLF.
Transport airplanes of Tateyama Kaigun Koukutai(Tateyama Naval Air Wing) also called "1001st force"that belonged to Dai 1 Koukutai( IJN 1st Air Wing later called 752 ku) and supported paratroop units.

November 20, 1941, Yokosuka 1st SNLF has 849 soldiers included 750 paratroopers, consisited of 3 companies and small artillery, and same as 3rd SNLF. that's the history.

Thanks to read and hope this helps.

trivia 1: On the way Menado raid, One F1M2 PETE from IJN AV Mizuho misfired transporters squadron of Yokosuka 1st SNLF and shot down one plane(all soldiers and crew were KIA). the pilot knew the fact and tried to suicide for his failure. But his commander said "You must not die but struggle more and more offered all your life. it is only way of your atonement for victims." and stopped his suicide.

trivia 2: The battle of Yokosuka 1st and 3rd SNLF were later filmed as hand-drawn animation story (charactars replaced by pretty animals) called "Momotaro : Sora no Shinpei"(1944).
This animation film was so much inspired by Walt Disney's Fantasia and became one of ancestors of so-called Japanese ANIME.  

Very interesting Windlessmill. Thank you for sharing your information with us. Please post more often.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Windlessmill
OK, from my conclusion, Taki & AE dev team are totally right. In the beginning of the war, Japan had only 3 units which have airborne capability. IJN Yokosuka 1st SNLF, 3rd SNLF and IJA 1st Teishindan.
As far as I know, There is NO fact such as Yokosuka 2nd SNLF had ever trained as paratroopers or had ability of airborne operations in 1941.
I don't know why English wiki was written such wrong description.

Thanks Windlessmill

...and another question for the doubters ....


Taki's book tells us where and when the IJA and IJN para forces were trained. 1YOK and 3YOK started the war in training on "Formosa". If it were true that 2YOK was para trained, where and when did this happen? I think this question has no answer because it never did happen. But I don't see how the position can be sustained that 2YOK were para trained without a theory about where and when they were trained. Organized unit para training was really a "just before the war started" kind of thing. Late 1941 and early 42 saw the training of all the initial units started and completed. How could 2YOK have been para trained with no data existing about when or where this happened? No answer, I think.

[LST Express]

Very nice thread guys!