Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition

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Herrbear
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Location: Glendora, CA

RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Herrbear »

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Tomcat
Of course in 1943 the replacement rate for IJN jumps to 480 pilots per month.)

I have the impression that not only the average quality but the total number of planes the Japanese can put in the air should decrease over time, assuming the allied player somewhat matches history. Am I wrong?

Where did you learn that the monthly replacement rate for Japanese jumps in 1943? I've never heard that before? (I don't doubt you. I'm just curious.)

I'm not sure I agree with your statement about the total number of planes the Japanese can put into the air. Historically, the Allied destroyed thousands of Japanese planes on the ground in 1945, prior to the planned invasion of Japan. I don't have the numbers on Japanese production in front of me. Actually, I don't have them at all. [:D] I can only speak in generalities. The Japanese had a relatively few number of planes in operational units at the start of the war. The fact that the Allies destroyed thousands of planes late in the war gives me the impression that the relative number of planes rose during the war. Again, no numbers. That'll take some time (and being home where I have resources).

The editor shows the following for Pilots per month
1941 Rate IJA 195 IJN 150
1942 Rate IJA 185 IJN 150
1943 Rate IJA 615 IJN 480
1944 Rate IJA 615 IJN 480
1945 Rate IJA 615 IJN 480
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Tomcat
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Tomcat »

ORIGINAL: erstad

The "List Top Pilots" screen has the KIA, WIA, and MIA losses at the bottom, so you can see this in-game. It has both campaign total and "Today", which I believe is like all the other "Today"s in that it really refers to the last turn sequence regardless of how many days it was.

I just posted an example of how pilot skills are not increasing in combat over in the warroom. In a unit that killed 42 allied planes over two days, not one showed a skill increase.[&:]

One curious thing I've noticed is that the figures from the "list top pilots" display don't seem to match what I see in WitPTracker AE. I'm not sure which is more accurate, but I suspect that WitPTracker is probably closer to actual.
Djordje
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Djordje »

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

Yes, they completely screwed up the training after patch "tweaking".
Djordje, are you using training groups? Do you know why fresh trainees can not be pulled into the groups when I send the experienced ones into reserve pool? I chenge the group aircraft type, transfer a few repaired ones to new base and disband the rest. Now I have training groups with 3 pilots, and I can add aircraft to those units, but can not draw trainee pilots [:@] Anyone got the solution for this problem?

I stopped bothering with training when I realized there are things that really needs to be addressed as they are breaking the whole crucially important part of the game. But one solution for your problem could be just to wait few more days - once you draw replacements into the squadron you won't be able to pull new ones for some time (not sure about exact time frame, 7-12 days is for some reason on my mind).

One more thing, which could probably make you stop using training at all:

Let's say your Trained pilot pool is empty, and when I say empty it means no general reserves in it. For easier understanding I will only talk about one type, fighters, but it is same for all types. So you have no Fighter reserves in Trained pilot pool, only few pilots with squadrons already assigned to them. Now, if you pull pilots into any squadron you will get exp 35 pilots from Reserve pool (since the Trained pool is empty), and you will want to avoid that by disbanding some squadrons into the Trained pilot pool to make them Fighter reserve. Now experience hit comes into play, your training squadrons with experience of 60 suddenly become 54 when you disband it. Ok, you swallow the bitter pill and decide you can live with the penalty...

And now real killer comes into play - let's say one of your earlier disbanded squadrons (or new one) enters the game, and you want to fill it with new recruits to start new cycle of training... So you happily click on Get pilots and guess what - pilots that you just disbanded into pool, the ones that took experience hit from 60 to 54, they are the ones that are being pulled!

Now people could say you should pull them into front line squadrons first but that completely kills their purpose. Trained pilot pool should be strategic reserve, and player should not be forced to keep it empty so he can pull new recruits into training squadrons.

So to make it short - Once you disband pilots into Trained pool you can't pull new recruits into squadrons that you use for training as the trained pilots will be taken first. And since there is experience hit every time you disband pilots into Trained pool you are forced to keep that pool empty or your training on map will be pointless (as you will train pilots, just to disband them into the pool to take exp hit, and to be pulled into training squadron again, with lesser experience).
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Yakface
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Yakface »

ORIGINAL: Djordje

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

Yes, they completely screwed up the training after patch "tweaking".
Djordje, are you using training groups? Do you know why fresh trainees can not be pulled into the groups when I send the experienced ones into reserve pool? I chenge the group aircraft type, transfer a few repaired ones to new base and disband the rest. Now I have training groups with 3 pilots, and I can add aircraft to those units, but can not draw trainee pilots [:@] Anyone got the solution for this problem?

I stopped bothering with training when I realized there are things that really needs to be addressed as they are breaking the whole crucially important part of the game. But one solution for your problem could be just to wait few more days - once you draw replacements into the squadron you won't be able to pull new ones for some time (not sure about exact time frame, 7-12 days is for some reason on my mind).

One more thing, which could probably make you stop using training at all:

Let's say your Trained pilot pool is empty, and when I say empty it means no general reserves in it. For easier understanding I will only talk about one type, fighters, but it is same for all types. So you have no Fighter reserves in Trained pilot pool, only few pilots with squadrons already assigned to them. Now, if you pull pilots into any squadron you will get exp 35 pilots from Reserve pool (since the Trained pool is empty), and you will want to avoid that by disbanding some squadrons into the Trained pilot pool to make them Fighter reserve. Now experience hit comes into play, your training squadrons with experience of 60 suddenly become 54 when you disband it. Ok, you swallow the bitter pill and decide you can live with the penalty...

And now real killer comes into play - let's say one of your earlier disbanded squadrons (or new one) enters the game, and you want to fill it with new recruits to start new cycle of training... So you happily click on Get pilots and guess what - pilots that you just disbanded into pool, the ones that took experience hit from 60 to 54, they are the ones that are being pulled!

Now people could say you should pull them into front line squadrons first but that completely kills their purpose. Trained pilot pool should be strategic reserve, and player should not be forced to keep it empty so he can pull new recruits into training squadrons.

So to make it short - Once you disband pilots into Trained pool you can't pull new recruits into squadrons that you use for training as the trained pilots will be taken first. And since there is experience hit every time you disband pilots into Trained pool you are forced to keep that pool empty or your training on map will be pointless (as you will train pilots, just to disband them into the pool to take exp hit, and to be pulled into training squadron again, with lesser experience).

Djordje, I wouldn't stop training. THe issues with the way things work (or don't) at the moment affect both sides so it's not a complete disaster, it just becomes one as the war goes on (bad news early on for the allies when they have poor pilots and the Japanese have good ones. Disater later on for the Japs when the situation is reversed).


Djordje
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Djordje »

ORIGINAL: Yakface

Djordje, I wouldn't stop training. THe issues with the way things work (or don't) at the moment affect both sides so it's not a complete disaster, it just becomes one as the war goes on (bad news early on for the allies when they have poor pilots and the Japanese have good ones. Disater later on for the Japs when the situation is reversed).

What I wanted to say is that I stopped using new AE system for training, and that I am back to old WITP one called Mogami's training.
And it is really a shame, since huge efforts were put by developers and community into AE, giving us all these great things that would make things both more historical and less time consuming for players, but because of few issues described above all great effects of the new system are nullified with penalties that you can avoid using different, yet more time consuming play style.
If player is lazy he will be penalized for it.
If player micromanages his pilots he will suffer no penalties.
And this is WITP, so vast majority of the players are micromanagers...
CV Zuikaku
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Location: Legrad, Croatia

RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by CV Zuikaku »

Thanks for the answer. Not good news, but thanks. Didn't knoe that the training system is so broken. Now I am somewhat demoralized to continue to play the game until they fix that. Too bad that The Elf is not here to say that they are working to fix the problem... [:(]
medicff
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by medicff »

ORIGINAL: erstad

The "List Top Pilots" screen has the KIA, WIA, and MIA losses at the bottom, so you can see this in-game. It has both campaign total and "Today", which I believe is like all the other "Today"s in that it really refers to the last turn sequence regardless of how many days it was.

I just posted an example of how pilot skills are not increasing in combat over in the warroom. In a unit that killed 42 allied planes over two days, not one showed a skill increase.[&:]

The way the current system is working, neither side will ever be able to have any pilots come close to the preprogrammed pilots that start the game or are set to enter with an airgroup via editor.


Czert3
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Czert3 »

I cant understand, why your pilots get EXP hit (and are you rure that they didnt get skill hit too?) , when disbanded/send to trained pool. same with pulling them back to training sqadron they recive again XP hit. If they change plane type - e.q. from bomber to fightre - I will fully understand exps hit, but not in another cases.

And for on map training squadrons - it have implemented that if pilot reach over e.q. 60 exps it is automaticaly send to trined pool (without exp hit) and instead of him is drawn new low-exp pilot ? If this is not implemented, that not only my hope for AE is totaly destroed, but I cant undertand reason, why on-map training was put in game, if serve no purpose. Of course, it is posible to send training squadron to front and put exhausted back to rear area, but I allways thought it is easier and less supply consuming (In RL and in game) to send one or more pilots, rather than shuftling whole squadrons.
CV Zuikaku
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by CV Zuikaku »

ORIGINAL: Czert

And for on map training squadrons - it have implemented that if pilot reach over e.q. 60 exps it is automaticaly send to trined pool (without exp hit) and instead of him is drawn new low-exp pilot ? If this is not implemented, that not only my hope for AE is totaly destroed, but I cant undertand reason, why on-map training was put in game, if serve no purpose. Of course, it is posible to send training squadron to front and put exhausted back to rear area, but I allways thought it is easier and less supply consuming (In RL and in game) to send one or more pilots, rather than shuftling whole squadrons.

It is not implemented...
erstad
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by erstad »

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

ORIGINAL: Czert

And for on map training squadrons - it have implemented that if pilot reach over e.q. 60 exps it is automaticaly send to trined pool (without exp hit) and instead of him is drawn new low-exp pilot ? If this is not implemented, that not only my hope for AE is totaly destroed, but I cant undertand reason, why on-map training was put in game, if serve no purpose. Of course, it is posible to send training squadron to front and put exhausted back to rear area, but I allways thought it is easier and less supply consuming (In RL and in game) to send one or more pilots, rather than shuftling whole squadrons.

It is not implemented...

But in the original release, the on-map did work OK. You could pull "trained" pilots into a unit, let it train for a month or two, and you could put it in combat and the new pilots would do OK. Sure, the attrition on them would be higher than the existing pilots, but reasonable.

Or, you could pull in a few pilots to a unit that is not in a hot-and-heavy area and have the unit at, say, 10 or 20 or 30% training and the low guys would move up over time.
CV Zuikaku
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by CV Zuikaku »

I ment that it was not implemented automatical movement of 60 or 70 exp pilots from on map training squadrons to reserve pool. I can not see any way of pulling trained pilots from on map training sqouadron to reserve pool except disbanding unit fragments, and then I can not refill the squadron with fresh trainees to begin training cycle again. And there is ofcourse misterious exp loss which does not make any sense...
Djordje
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Djordje »

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

I ment that it was not implemented automatical movement of 60 or 70 exp pilots from on map training squadrons to reserve pool. I can not see any way of pulling trained pilots from on map training sqouadron to reserve pool except disbanding unit fragments, and then I can not refill the squadron with fresh trainees to begin training cycle again. And there is ofcourse misterious exp loss which does not make any sense...

Note that disbanding unit fragments to get pilots was not the way it was designed to be done. The devs balanced number of pilots and number of squadrons around the assumption that some of them would spend 120 days reforming between two training cycles. By disbanding fragments and keeping parent on map players get more pilots than designed.
But as long as there is ability to do so it will be tempting to use it, especially when the current system is penalizing easy and convenient style of training to the point where it becomes almost useless.

Simple solution would be to get rid of exp penalty when transferring pilots to Reserve pool, and to prevent fragments of squadrons from disbanding.
CV Zuikaku
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by CV Zuikaku »

ORIGINAL: Djordje

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

I ment that it was not implemented automatical movement of 60 or 70 exp pilots from on map training squadrons to reserve pool. I can not see any way of pulling trained pilots from on map training sqouadron to reserve pool except disbanding unit fragments, and then I can not refill the squadron with fresh trainees to begin training cycle again. And there is ofcourse misterious exp loss which does not make any sense...

Note that disbanding unit fragments to get pilots was not the way it was designed to be done. The devs balanced number of pilots and number of squadrons around the assumption that some of them would spend 120 days reforming between two training cycles. By disbanding fragments and keeping parent on map players get more pilots than designed.
But as long as there is ability to do so it will be tempting to use it, especially when the current system is penalizing easy and convenient style of training to the point where it becomes almost useless.

Simple solution would be to get rid of exp penalty when transferring pilots to Reserve pool, and to prevent fragments of squadrons from disbanding.

Too bad that no one from the air team is reading this thread to give us some explanations. Or if they working on some of these issues for the next patch...
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Yakface
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Yakface »

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

ORIGINAL: Djordje

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

I ment that it was not implemented automatical movement of 60 or 70 exp pilots from on map training squadrons to reserve pool. I can not see any way of pulling trained pilots from on map training sqouadron to reserve pool except disbanding unit fragments, and then I can not refill the squadron with fresh trainees to begin training cycle again. And there is ofcourse misterious exp loss which does not make any sense...

Note that disbanding unit fragments to get pilots was not the way it was designed to be done. The devs balanced number of pilots and number of squadrons around the assumption that some of them would spend 120 days reforming between two training cycles. By disbanding fragments and keeping parent on map players get more pilots than designed.
But as long as there is ability to do so it will be tempting to use it, especially when the current system is penalizing easy and convenient style of training to the point where it becomes almost useless.

Simple solution would be to get rid of exp penalty when transferring pilots to Reserve pool, and to prevent fragments of squadrons from disbanding.

Too bad that no one from the air team is reading this thread to give us some explanations. Or if they working on some of these issues for the next patch...

Is there anywhere else to put it that is more likely to get noticed by the powers that be?
CV Zuikaku
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by CV Zuikaku »

I'll try to open the petition too see if there are more people interested in changing some things... If you know who to contact- feel free to do so...
Cathartes
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by Cathartes »

Too bad that no one from the air team is reading this thread to give us some explanations. Or if they working on some of these issues for the next patch...


We read, but we don't always, and can't always comment. Issues are being looked at and prioritized.
medicff
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by medicff »

ORIGINAL: Cathartes
Too bad that no one from the air team is reading this thread to give us some explanations. Or if they working on some of these issues for the next patch...


We read, but we don't always, and can't always comment. Issues are being looked at and prioritized.

I am sure the developers are constantly looking at all the issues brought up on this forum and testing, testing and retesting to see if they can make it better. The key word here is PATIENCE. we all love this game but it took a long time to develop and I am sure will take some time to have the "non paid" programmers and designers work out issues.

Thanks for all the developers efforts and I for one will keep posting my opinions and feedback with patience. [:D][:D]
erstad
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by erstad »

ORIGINAL: Cathartes
Too bad that no one from the air team is reading this thread to give us some explanations. Or if they working on some of these issues for the next patch...


We read, but we don't always, and can't always comment. Issues are being looked at and prioritized.

Thanks!
vaned74
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Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:30 pm

RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by vaned74 »

Good to know these posts are being monitored! I'm confident a good game will only get better with time.

Just a thought, in v1.80 I was able to train a specific skill from say 30 xp to 70 xp in about 3 months quite easily. The time may have been right for that one skill, but I think reaching 70 by training alone is a little much. I like the findings of Yakface's first post - perhaps a cap of 50 to be reached by training only in a skill is good. The rest should be gained by combat experience.

So, it appears the issues are:

1) in patch 1.804 pilot training rate was so drastically cut as to be hardly worth the expenditure of supplies and ops losses - minus well train by the old witp method
2) skills should increase as a result of combat
3) perhaps the max level a pilot can train too without combat exp should be set lower than 70 - maybe 50-60; thus I would also make the rate to attain this max trainable level the same as in the release version (say 3 months to delta the 20-30 points)
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scott64
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RE: Pilot Experience, Training and Combat

Post by scott64 »

Found this in my most recent Allied operation report, from Wienie Roasting on the last day of the month. [:)][8D]

Accelerated training for 21 New Zealand pilots
Accelerated training for 4 Chinese pilots
Accelerated training for 12 Soviet pilots
Lucky for you, tonight it's just me


Any ship can be a minesweeper..once !! :)

http://suspenseandmystery.blogspot.com/
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