Japanese Death Star Artillery

[Sharkosaurus rex]

I don't want fanboy fantasties for either player. I want a game that feels a little bit like WWII. I know there was only one WWII and it has been and (mostly) gone. I think the excellent OoB  is let down by the program. It is early days in the patching so you knows what improvements might be incorporated.

[Q-Ball]

BTW, I have heard a couple folks notice that Bataan is consistently falling sooner than history. It should be pointed out that Japanese players are consistently using more troops than the Japanese did historically. The IJA withdrew the 48th Division at the end of January, and basically tried to reduce Bataan with one not-so-hot brigade of reservists, before realizing the mistake and bringing more troops.

If you try to take Bataan with just the 65th Bde, it will probably take you until April as well.

[DuckofTindalos]

There you go, using logic to explain fanboyism...[:D]

[Canoerebel]

Interesting comments about how setting troops to reserve status "insulates" them from artillery fire; but that is not a fix for China.  Here's my thoughts on the game's radical imbalance in China in 1942 that threatens to make the game totally unrealistic:

1.  Chinese troops cannot fight the Japanese in the open.  They take huge and hugely disproportionate losses.

2.  Therefore, the Allied player must get the Chinese to base hexes and fortify those hexes.

3.  Chinese troops in strongly fortified base hexes can hold their own against Japanese infantry.  This is a "fair fight" and would otherwise permit the situation in China to be relatively stable and decently representative of the war.  IE, the Chinese can fortify an MLR roughly from Nanning to Changsha to Nanyang to Chengchow to Loyang to Sian and have some hope of making a fair fight of it.

4. If forts drop, however, the Chinese will be easily defeated.  Since the Japanese can bring larger numbers to bear at any one or any several points, the Chinese have to keep most/all of their infantry on "combat status" or risk having forts drop and the base fall.

5.  If the Japanese mass artillery - heck, even a few Japanese artillery units - Chinese units will take huge losses day after day.  The Chinese could reduce this impact by setting infantry to reserve status, but for the reasons set forth in Point 4 this is not a viable option.  The only hope for the Chinese is to have a huge AV behind forts, so setting alot of troops to Reserve status isn't an option.

6.  It would be okay if the Japanese were working under the same constraints - IE, if they needed to put units on reserve status to prevent high losses.  But the Japanese are under no pressure to do so - Chinese artillery is a joke. 

7.  A game in which the Chinese desperately need to put troops into reserve status but the Japanese have no need to do so is out of whack.

8.  If I play the Japanese, I now know how to easily defeat China.  I just save all my Political Points until I can bring all my artillery to bear in China.  Then I methodically destroy the Chinese Army and take all (or essentially all) of the country.  Then I move those units somewhere else - Russia or India if I want to remain on the offensive; or to defensive positions if I want to make my defenses in the Pacific impregnable.  Think how tough it's going to be for the Allies to advance in the Pacific if the Japs have all those Chinese troops stationed at Luzon, Java, Okinowa, Formosa, etc.

9.  In other words, the game goes off on a radical slant that is completely a-historical.  The Japanese devote all their time and attention to China while just doing maintenance work in the Pacific (taking Java, Singapore, the PI and then garrisoning and building forts).  This game become WIC: GE (War in China:  General's Edition) rather than WitP:  AE.  And where's the fun in the Japanese being unstoppable and unbeatable in China? 

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

I think that most players of Japan just put it down to hindsight. They don't see any flaw in their Death Stars in China, they are not playing WWII they are playing WitPAE and they want to get every bit out of the program regardless of how far from history their exploits take them. Most think it is their genius that they capture Singapore weeks before it's historical fall (15th Feb 42) , Bataan months before it fell on 9th April 42, or blasting 3,000 Chinese in their continuous daily bombardments in China. If the program allows it- it must be fine fine fine.

100% of this can be said about Allied players too. At some point people should just forget about fanboism. You want fanboism? In WITP (and probably even more so in AE) the majority of the PBEMs ended with the Allied crushing the Japanese FAR before it was done in real life...

it must be the program then... EXACTLY!

Game players being who they are, a significant portion see WITP-AE as a "puzzle" to be solved. These are the folks who insist that "it's a game!". Another large portion of those who own it want it to be an "historical simulation game"..., and get upset when "gamers" drive a truck through the historical loopholes of programming and rules.

Personally, I'm with the second group. Where possible a game based on an historical event should reflect the realities of that event. Anything else is a slap in the face to those who actually lived through that event. And what always strikes me as "funny" is that making the game historically accurate shouldn't really upset the "gamers" at all. It just offers a different "puzzle" to deal with, giving them more value for their money.

So for every "loophole" in history that gets closed, Historians get a better simulation, and Gamers get a better "puzzle". Sounds like a "win-win" situation in my book.

[Canoerebel]

Interesting comments about how setting troops to reserve status "insulates" them from artillery fire; but that is not a fix for China.  Here's my thoughts on the game's radical imbalance in China in 1942 that threatens to make the game totally unrealistic:

1.  Chinese troops cannot fight the Japanese in the open.  They take huge and hugely disproportionate losses.

2.  Therefore, the Allied player must get the Chinese to base hexes and fortify those hexes.

3.  Chinese troops in strongly fortified base hexes can hold their own against Japanese infantry.  This is a "fair fight" and would otherwise permit the situation in China to be relatively stable and decently representative of the war.  IE, the Chinese can fortify an MLR roughly from Nanning to Changsha to Nanyang to Chengchow to Loyang to Sian and have some hope of making a fair fight of it.

4. If forts drop, however, the Chinese will be easily defeated.  Since the Japanese can bring larger numbers to bear at any one or any several points, the Chinese have to keep most/all of their infantry on "combat status" or risk having forts drop and the base fall.

5.  If the Japanese mass artillery - heck, even a few Japanese artillery units - Chinese units will take huge losses day after day.  The Chinese could reduce this impact by setting infantry to reserve status, but for the reasons set forth in Point 4 this is not a viable option.  The only hope for the Chinese is to have a huge AV behind forts, so setting alot of troops to Reserve status isn't an option.

6.  It would be okay if the Japanese were working under the same constraints - IE, if they needed to put units on reserve status to prevent high losses.  But the Japanese are under no pressure to do so - Chinese artillery is a joke. 

7.  A game in which the Chinese desperately need to put troops into reserve status but the Japanese have no need to do so is out of whack.

8.  If I play the Japanese, I now know how to easily defeat China.  I just save all my Political Points until I can bring all my artillery to bear in China.  Then I methodically destroy the Chinese Army and take all (or essentially all) of the country.  Then I move those units somewhere else - Russia or India if I want to remain on the offensive; or to defensive positions if I want to make my defenses in the Pacific impregnable.  Think how tough it's going to be for the Allies to advance in the Pacific if the Japs have all those Chinese troops stationed at Luzon, Java, Okinowa, Formosa, etc.

9.  In other words, the game goes off on a radical slant that is completely a-historical.  The Japanese devote all their time and attention to China while just doing maintenance work in the Pacific (taking Java, Singapore, the PI and then garrisoning and building forts).  This game become WIC: GE (War in China:  General's Edition) rather than WitP:  AE.  And where's the fun in the Japanese being unstoppable and unbeatable in China? 

[wpurdom]

Q-Ball

BTW, I have heard a couple folks notice that Bataan is consistently falling sooner than history. It should be pointed out that Japanese players are consistently using more troops than the Japanese did historically. The IJA withdrew the 48th Division at the end of January, and basically tried to reduce Bataan with one not-so-hot brigade of reservists, before realizing the mistake and bringing more troops.

If you try to take Bataan with just the 65th Bde, it will probably take you until April as well.

A small quibble - The 16th Division minus the 3/20 battalion also fought on Bataan. IIRC it was about half the size of the reinforced 48th Division and probably 1/3 the combat power.

But the main point is correct. Just about all gamers are using twice the troops and maybe 3 times the combat power as IRL.

[Sharkosaurus rex]

Yes the 48th ID was withdrawn from the fighting in Jan 42 for it's preparations for the upcoming Java invasion- it was considered an amphibious specialty division. Also some air assets were withdrawn with it. It is true the th 48th ID made the biggest gains in the fighting on Luzon. Yes the 65th IB was sent to the Philippines as a garrison force. The 65th IB did replace the 48th ID when it was witdrawn. But the Japanese 14th Army had more than just those two units on its books.
The 14th Army consisted of the 16th, 56th, 48th ID and the 65th IB as part of it's OoB. In addition it had more combat engineers than normal, the 14th Army also had two tank regiments, 5 field artillery bats, and 1 mortar bat. By the time the 48th ID was withdrawn the fighting was already on the Bataan Peninsula. The Japanese made very slow progress for several weeks as a result of their bonzai attacking and predictable attempt at land troops by barges on a coastal flank. In fact the Japanese had to witdraw their lines a couple of km because of US counter-attacks. The 4th ID was sent as re-inforcement and the Japanese again began to make some progress. On 3rd April the Japanese fired off a 6 hour artillery bombardment of 300 cannons and an intensive air attack. By 6th April the whole 14th Army was making progress along the front line. Several counter-attacks were beaten back by the Japanese. By the 8th April the entire US situation on Bataan was hopeless and General Wainwight surrendered on 9th April.

[Canoerebel]

Quit hijacking this thread with extraneous and irrelevant comments.[:-]

[wpurdom]

The results in the countryside are probably more ahistorical than the results in the cities. I think in some of the pre-42 fights in the cities the Chinese put up prolonged resistance but wound up suffering huge losses also. I've never seen any indication that Chinese forces suffered big losses in the countryside - mostly they didn't stay in contact long enough and on rare occasions they stood and fought or counterattacked under favorable conditions.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Have you read Nomonhan? I was actually surprised at the "sophistication" of IJA Artillery capability presented in that story. Certainly not "modern mobile battle" capable - but multiple artillery units operating together at least. Perhaps Nomonhan is mostly "Russian versus Japanese" a la a WWI capability - but the Nomonhan example is not one that would be familiar with those who only known about IJA artillery capabilities as demonstrated in the "Pacific" sense there were very few cases of massed IJA artillery in the Pacific!

I recall the discussion we had revolving around this. It was interesting in that we had approached it from opposite ends. You were suprised at the IJA's sophisitcation based on WWII experience while i was a bit disapointed given the Japanese exp from the Russo japanese war, the latter in which the Japanese had embraced modern weaponry and most importantly, tactics on how to use them. It was a key advantage for them vs. the Russians. Nomanhan showed that the IJA was well aware of the need for firepower....but that they had not been able to fullfill it in large part due to the appropriations vs. the air force and navy. Hence, "Spirtiual/martial" strength had to be emphasised. The smart officers knew better. Nomanhan also put on display the severe logistical restraints they had to operate from wheras the Russians had built up a slap happy supply of shells! Still, given the need and enough time, the Japanese could and did concentrate sizable arty firepower. The final siege of Bataan was a good example.

[wpurdom]

Still, given the need and enough time, the Japanese could and did concentrate sizable arty firepower. The final siege of Bataan was a good example.

Good point, Nik. For these sort of arty bombardments shouldn't you need 100% prep? (3 months. It's not so much that you can't do it at Bataan, or Minsk, or Nomonhan?, or whereever you have railroads, but it takes lots of prep work and can't be done on the fly.

[Sharkosaurus rex]

If India is invaded beyond historical points they receive quite large re-inforcements that are off-map in other theatres.
If eastern Australia is invaded they receive quite large re-inforcements- these are serving in other theatres.
If New Zealand is invaded they receive some re-inforcements that were sering over-seas....
If China is being over-run the Chinese receive nothing. If Chungking is Japanese their is zero re-inforcements.
Yes the Commonwealth countries had forces fighting overseas and would had recalled them if their home country was invade. But China already has its full OoB on map.
What could be helpful then would be to take out say 20 Chinese Corps... but at the same time make them their full strength with no elements disabled.. so their over-all at start strength would be the same. When a Chinese city falls to the Japanese- one of the full strength corps spawns at Chungking. This way the Chinese would be given some help without increasing their OoB size.
Another way to help China would be if a Chinese city (not towns) is captured by the Japanese then their Manchurian garrison requirement might increase by say 500- to show nervous USSR reactions.
Or the Allies get 500 PP for each Chinese city captured.
Also any destroyed Chinese corps should rspawn at full strength.

[ETF]

oooh I like that!

[vinnie71]

Fact is that the Chinese Army was actually a collection of armies with barely a functioning central command. In a way the disabled/understrength corps do represent the Chinese Army as it should be.
 
Playing as the allies against the AI, I find that there is hope for the Chinese. If you bring enough supplies from Burma to supply, fortify and repair the industry of the cities, you can stop the Japanese cold because in the end the Japanese have to concentrate a lot of their strength to take one reasonably defended Chinese city. I've also pounced repeatedly upon isolated Japanese units, especially up north and from the recon I'm receiving the AI has let its guard down near Canton, so it will become the focus of an offensive asap (before the AVG leaves for good). My only gripe with the Chinese is their rather lacklustre number of infantry replacements. That was the only 'advantage' they had over the Japanese....

[Canoerebel]

Interesting ideas worth considering, Shark.

Another problem in China is the terribly one-sided casualties inflicted.  Here's a good example from my turn of June 13, 1942:

For the Japanese deliberate attack at Chengchow the two sides had essentially equal infantry numbers, the Japanese had seventeen artillery units, and forts had been reduced from 4 to 0 over a few weeks of attacks and artillery bombardments.  So the Chinese are about ready for defeat.  The Japanese attack comes off at 2:1, costing the Japs 1,643 casualties to 18,409 for the Chinese.[&:]

A few days ago, a large Chinese army clobbered two Japanese units attempting to besiege Nanyang. The Japanese retreated and most of the Chinese followed.  On the 13th, a fresh and victorious Chinese army attacks the defeated, disorganized, routed Japanese units a hex east of Nanyang.  This attack comes off at 37:1 and inflictes 3,768 Japanese casualties to 1,171 for the Chinese.  Huh?  The next day, a 50:1 Chinese attack inflictes 7,823 to 404.  Better, but how does a 37:1 attack for the Chinese achieve 3:1 ratio in losses while a 2:1 Japanese attack achieves 12:1 ratio of losses? 

And this is not an isolated occurrence.  This is every attack in the game to date.[:@]

[goran007]

people stop asking for a balanced game because that is stupid. Chinese survived 1942 only because Japan didnt want to occupy any more land.

On other hand, if someone who plays Japan does want China asap and he is willing to spend pp for bringing troops from Korea or Russian borders, he should be able to do it with ease.

Considering number of barrels for a offensive that a typical 'death star' would have, casualties are by far less that it would have been.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: goran007
people stop asking for a balanced game because that is stupid. Chinese survived 1942 only because Japan didnt want to occupy any more land.

On other hand, if someone who plays Japan does want China asap and he is willing to spend pp for bringing troops from Korea or Russian borders, he should be able to do it with ease.

Considering number of barrels for a offensive that a typical 'death star' would have, casualties are by far less that it would have been.

LOL

[Nikademus]

How come more Japanese units don't form when the Kuriles are invaded in early 42? [:'(]

[vinnie71]

There is also the question of Chinese lack of experience... it really hurts. BTW has anyone ever checked stats for Chinese infantry? If I remember well, they are abyssmal until they upgrade in 43 or 44...