Why the 7th instead of the 10th for the PoW and Repulse?

[captskillet]

I've actually never seen the historical result - that both ships are sunk - and about 1/6th of the time I've seen both escape unscathed. Usually both get damaged - usually one heavily one not so heavily - but I suspect in most games - both will be back in action by mid-1942.

Thats what I got jw........Its Aug. 42, Repulse just came back on line and POW should be back in about 30 more days.

[TommyG]

In my two PBEM historical starts since Patch 2, both ships have been sunk both times; albeit once Repulse was taken by the now invincible sub as she limped back to Singapore with 87 in flotation damage

[KenchiSulla]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Mike, in a historical first turn Nagumo has to attack PH and not the subs at Manila or some other target. Some believe the PH attack to be stupid and would rather have the attack fall on the subs in the PI.

I looked into attacking Manilla port with KB, but then I realised the torpedo's mostly dud and the Yanks get mucho SS as reinforcements during '42 and '43.... Kind of disheartened me there and decided to bash the antiquated battlewagons at Pearl Harbour for a laugh....

I don't think it would be worth the trouble to code a force Z sortie later in the scenario tbh.

[PzB74]

If you allow Force Z to have options this should also be reflected at PH.
What if the Allied carriers didn't sortie from PH but were delayed, what if they were closer and charged to attack the Kido Butai? What if PH was waiting for the Jap carriers?

The outcome could change history considerably...both ways - but Japan can afford to loose a carrier if they in return can sink 2 US.

These options are available as the "surprise options" in WitP if I remember correctly.

[ADB123]

[/quote]
Oh I've been accused of being a JFB and I've been accused of being an AFB - and I've been called plenty of other names that are allowed (on the forums) and plenty that aren't - comes with the territory. But Hans is correct in that in all of my AE starts ... I've actually never seen the historical result - that both ships are sunk - and about 1/6th of the time I've seen both escape unscathed. Usually both get damaged - usually one heavily one not so heavily - but I suspect in most games - both will be back in action by mid-1942.

[/quote]

I've done five AE historical starts against the AI and one pbem non-historical start in which I let the PoW and Repulse sail according to existing orders. In all six starts I lost both ships. The AI starts were at both Patch levels.

[jazman]

ORIGINAL: ADB123

I've done five AE historical starts against the AI and one pbem non-historical start in which I let the PoW and Repulse sail according to existing orders. In all six starts I lost both ships. The AI starts were at both Patch levels.

Now you know why your friends don't take you along when they go to Vegas.

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: jazman

ORIGINAL: ADB123

I've done five AE historical starts against the AI and one pbem non-historical start in which I let the PoW and Repulse sail according to existing orders. In all six starts I lost both ships. The AI starts were at both Patch levels.

Now you know why your friends don't take you along when they go to Vegas.

Hey, it's probably more true than you think... My Dad would never let me stand by him when he gambled, he would go from winning to losing as soon as I got within a few feet of him... [:D]

[xj900uk]

Fortunately in my game against the AI the Japanese Nellies couldn't find Force Z  because of bad weather, in the afternoon they ran into a flight of Buffallo's & lost aobut half a dozen planes for their pains as well.
Next turn I recalled Force Z hastily to Singapore with a nice big LRCAP of Buffallos over it, then after refueling sent it (with a couple of extra CL's) to Ceylon up the western side of Malaysia,  again with constant LRCAP's of Buffallo's & Blenheims to provide a protective umbrella.
The IJAAF Nellies tried to get at it,  lost a few planes to my defensive fighters (one Blenheim pilot managed two victories!) and one british DD was torpedo'ed & sunk just before the big westward turn near that Star place

[Walker84]

Well, as ADB's PBEM partner I'm not allowed to read his AAR so glad you put your head above the parapet buddy so I can add a few general comments [;)]
'
IMO some of this gets to the heart of the 'game as an historical simulation' discussion which has appeared in many threads passim. With 20:20 hindsight would we do the same thing as happened IRL i.e let Force Z steam off up the coast when we know in game terms its safer to cut and run for Trincomalee under LRCAP protection. Would Churchill have sanctioned this politically however? Also we know that the Allies seriously underestimated the capabilities of Japanese pilots and consequently the risks of using capital ships in waters with inadequate air support. They learned the lesson the hard way. Speaking as a Brit its still painful to see those 2 battlewagons go down but there was something of an air of inevitability about it although I have played the odd start where the weather causes the Nells to misfire and Force Z survives.

Although we opted for a non-historic start, readers of the AAR (not me I hasten to add!) will note that I elected to continue with the PH raid and most of the historical landing objectives because this seemed like absolutely the right course of action. This is not to say that I won't throw a few surprises in to keep ADB on his toes but I like to test each one to see how it stands up to my own internal House Rules which could be summarised as 'be adventurous but not outlandish as you plan your actions'. I.e. I would not invade somewhere like palembang on turn 1 even if i figured I could get there because i do not think it fits well with the historical doctrine. As the game develops different options will obviously present themselves - dictating whether to go for the India or Pacific expansion strategies etc and that's where the game can really depart from and also change history which is why i love to play it!

Of course these are my own observations and I'm not suggesting that anyone should play any way other than what suits them but thought I would share anyway!

[Nikademus]

I once sank PoW with an iboat with six torpedo hits before any planes, BB's cruisers or transports got their licks in or got licked.

Such JFB Nonsense!!!!!!!!! [:D]

[Puhis]

This game cannot ever be "historical", what ever that means.

For example in a day one, every allied player knows japanese long range torpedo bombers, zero perfomance, IJN night fighting skills and where japanese are going to land. Every japanese player knows allied weak spots, coming war of attrition, deadly late war allied subs and B-29s and so on.

So I think it's fair enough that player don't have that freedom of choice in first turn. If somebody doesn't like it, there is always alternative scenario. [:)]

[jazman]

Can we roll the game start date back to Dec 5? No sane American would stuff of bunch of battleships in PH, without any CAP.

[bradfordkay]

There's plenty of fighters on Oahu to provide CAP, though maybe not enough to fight off the KB. But no one knew that at the time.

 The problem is that our leaders there were so foolish as to have absolutely none up on Dec 7, not did they provide for any search aircraft to be up. Considering the 'war warning' had been floating for a week, I have always considered this to be the most serious dereliction of duty. Failure to provide the best protection they could was unforgivable. 

[Mike Scholl]

I played a start with a friend no surprise/non historic once.  We had to re-start.  Enough cap rose automatically (I hadn't changed any original settings) due to the radar warning to put a noticeable dent in KB's air strength, and more importantly prevent a substantial amount of the damage to the Navy and the airfields.  I lost a lot of planes, but there's not much comparison between lossing half-trained P-26's and veteran Vals and Kates.

We were trying to simulate the gradual loss of surprise caused by the time zones and distance of the opening attacks without the "all or nothing" limits of the game's choices.

[xj900uk]

Well, hate to burst your bubble, but the IJN had no guarantee of surprise when they set out to attack PH.  Nagumo half-expected to fight his way in and loose several of his precious carriers in the process,w hich is why his enthusiasm for the plan was less than 100% gushing.  Naturally cautious at hte best of times,  he took the opportunity to hightail it back to Japan without finishing the job properly the moment surprise was blown (a move that has been debated endlessly eveer since, both in print and on these Forums)

[bklooste]

Obviously since the Nells and Betties cant sink them consistently the  AFB devs have  made them into actual flying matchboxes instead of effective aircraft
 

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Well, hate to burst your bubble, but the IJN had no guarantee of surprise when they set out to attack PH.  Nagumo half-expected to fight his way in and loose several of his precious carriers in the process,w hich is why his enthusiasm for the plan was less than 100% gushing.  Naturally cautious at hte best of times,  he took the opportunity to hightail it back to Japan without finishing the job properly the moment surprise was blown (a move that has been debated endlessly eveer since, both in print and on these Forums)

House rule should be no 2nd day attack without replacing Nagumo by a more aggresive comander.

[xj900uk]

You mean like that chap Yamagushi (sorry if I've spelt it incorrectly) who commanded CarDiv 2 from the Hiryu?  He was supposed to be the second best tactical aware Carrier admiral in japan (after Nagumo) with Ozawa third.  Both he and Ozawa were supposed to be a lot more agressive than Nagumo