Absolute DEI Defense

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

Against human I wouldn't try holding Java too hard. All Japanese player needs is Balikpapan and entire Java turns into giant POW camp. Size 4 AF full of mitsubishi bombers and Zeros, close enough to sweep entire island and attack both ends to prevent supplies/escapes. Balikpapan in itself is relatively easy to invade, especially with KB support.

I respectfully disagree. An Allied player that keeps Java will be in prime position to threaten oil fields at Balikpapan and Palembang and hold Soerbaja and Batavia indefinitely. This will cripple Japanese oil production. Rather than keeping the necessary forces on hand for the IJ to keep Java in check, the IJ forces are much better off taking Java and eradicating this threat on their internal lines.

Why would IJ player care, if someone bombs those oil fields in first one or two months of 1942? Quite frankly, if allies spend their missions on strategic role at this point, Japanese player should open a bottle of bubbly as those bombers are not bombing something that would actually slow him down.

If Allies at the same time can't move ships through Java Sea, it is their lines that are cut and they can't sortie with their surface force (with speed anyway). Advances to Timor, Borneo and even Sumatra can easily make Java a prison to allied forces, which Japan can take at their leisure. If Allied player decides to toss a lot of short legged planes on that island, I foresee a lot of destroyed air groups.

[&:]

An Allied player could gain substantial delay in the use of those oil fields by the Japanese by destroying them as soon as they are taken. If possible to do-the Japanese player would have to be asleep at the switch to let this happen-this is a great opportunity for the Allies.

By destroying the oil and resource production of Palembang, for example, the allies could be sticking Japan with a repair cost of hundreds of thousands of supply better spent elsewhere. Since these things 'heal' so slowly, 1000 oil production-for example-would take almost three years to bring up to snuff on one base alone. If all the DEI alone were strategically bombed to nothingness, the Japanese oil supply dries out (from other sources) within a year, bringing the Japanese economy to its knees.

I couldn't possibly care less about whether or not I slow down the Japanese schedule if I can destroy the very things the Japanese are striving for! A few air groups or LCUs "imprisoned" (where are they in game terms if they're run off the island and surrender anyways?) is a small price for me to pay for bombing access to oil and resources and denying it to the enemy.

In my first AE game versus the AI IJ, I kept Java until early April 1942. I was able to dump upwards of 1,000,000 supply into the island via Tjitilap and Soerbaja in a few months. I eventually discontinued the game over AI 'issues', but it had withstood 3 or 4 landings, resulting in >450 Japanese ships and at least 4-5 divisions of men drowned at sea. The Dutch regiments had reformed and were reinforced by a few mobile battalions and survivors from Singapore as well as the better part of a British division. If I had continued playing, I'd no doubt that Java would have been the rock upon which the IJN would have broken itself.

Sure, this was against the AI (very hard), but Java's not the brainless gimmee it once was in WiTP. Ignore this threat to your internal lines at your peril.

[Q-Ball]

Good thread. I mostly agree with Chickenboy on a couple points:

1. A large Allied commitment to the DEI will benefit the Japanese, if the japanese player is an experienced opponent who takes some elementary precautions.

2. It is absolutely a good idea for the Allies to Strategically Bomb the Oil japan Captures. Repairing it is a major hassle, as it ties up alot of shipping to haul the supplies.

[Ketza]

As a Japanese player you must plan in advance for this type of allied behavior. In witp when I played allies I gave several Japanese players a bloody nose in Java and forced at least 2 to quit over early KB losses. Essentially you have a month to set things up to make it hard for the allies to set up the landbased "dauntless defence".

Another thing you make sure of is you dont take something "early" that could lead to allied strikes on facilities. Might as well take them last as they continue producing and you can scoop up the resources and oil anyway.

[Riva Ridge]

I am in agreement with Q-Ball on this one. Your opponent's strategy was an extremely lucky thing and nine times out of ten, that large of an allied commitment in the DEI that early would have A) Been crushed, and B) would have opened enormous opportunities elsewhere. My last PBM against a good allied player turned out that way. He drew a line in the sand and attempted to draw me into a decisive battle would a large amount of assets at Koepang. Problem was that by LBAs ranged everything in the DEI by that point, and a committed large surface and CV TFs to the decisive battle and utterly routed him. His commitment there gave me the keys to Northern Australia.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

Against human I wouldn't try holding Java too hard. All Japanese player needs is Balikpapan and entire Java turns into giant POW camp. Size 4 AF full of mitsubishi bombers and Zeros, close enough to sweep entire island and attack both ends to prevent supplies/escapes. Balikpapan in itself is relatively easy to invade, especially with KB support.

I respectfully disagree. An Allied player that keeps Java will be in prime position to threaten oil fields at Balikpapan and Palembang and hold Soerbaja and Batavia indefinitely. This will cripple Japanese oil production. Rather than keeping the necessary forces on hand for the IJ to keep Java in check, the IJ forces are much better off taking Java and eradicating this threat on their internal lines.

WRT the original poster: throwing everything as Allies into forward defense of DEI is not only unrealistic but potentially disastrous if things go awry. Once those surface ships and a/c carriers are destroyed, unless the IJ is defeated in detail in kind, there are no defenses to prevent seaborne invasion of Australia, India, the Hawaiian islands or even some areas of CONUS. Likely the Americans would never have cast the dice this way-keeping nothing at all in reserve for strategically critical areas.

This defense is drawing to the ultimate inside straight in poker. You might get really lucky a few times, but more often you'll be left with a pretty poor hand.

Without knowing your opponent, I would have expected a resignation would the events of his brilliant offensive turned against him. This seems to be the mindset of the 'I win it all now or I go home' type.

so how do you hold Java as the Allied if the Japanese player can move in a couple of thousand av in, let´s say, March 42? [&:]

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Ametysth

Against human I wouldn't try holding Java too hard. All Japanese player needs is Balikpapan and entire Java turns into giant POW camp. Size 4 AF full of mitsubishi bombers and Zeros, close enough to sweep entire island and attack both ends to prevent supplies/escapes. Balikpapan in itself is relatively easy to invade, especially with KB support.

I respectfully disagree. An Allied player that keeps Java will be in prime position to threaten oil fields at Balikpapan and Palembang and hold Soerbaja and Batavia indefinitely. This will cripple Japanese oil production. Rather than keeping the necessary forces on hand for the IJ to keep Java in check, the IJ forces are much better off taking Java and eradicating this threat on their internal lines.

WRT the original poster: throwing everything as Allies into forward defense of DEI is not only unrealistic but potentially disastrous if things go awry. Once those surface ships and a/c carriers are destroyed, unless the IJ is defeated in detail in kind, there are no defenses to prevent seaborne invasion of Australia, India, the Hawaiian islands or even some areas of CONUS. Likely the Americans would never have cast the dice this way-keeping nothing at all in reserve for strategically critical areas.

This defense is drawing to the ultimate inside straight in poker. You might get really lucky a few times, but more often you'll be left with a pretty poor hand.

Without knowing your opponent, I would have expected a resignation would the events of his brilliant offensive turned against him. This seems to be the mindset of the 'I win it all now or I go home' type.

so how do you hold Java as the Allied if the Japanese player can move in a couple of thousand av in, let´s say, March 42? [&:]

castor troy: my post wasn't meant to expound on the likelihood of holding Java against a meaningful Japanese assault. One of the previous posters suggested letting Java 'rot' without any attempts to capture it. I was pointing out the limitations of this approach and using a personal example from a game against the AI.

Hope this helps.