Where are the long lances?

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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mdiehl
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

Post by mdiehl »

I'm a bit lost when you specifically mentioned in previous posts that you were attempting to suggest the factors for a "Tassafaronga engine" for UV and yet now you say that Tassafaronga is an exception to your rules.


It was an editing error on my part. I wrote factors 1-4 and the preceding sentence then added #5 (and should have edited out the "Tfrnga is a glaring exception" sentence).

Drongo, I will concede the point that the USN DDs acting on their own would be *less* likely to launch a coordinated multi-ship attack in 1942 based on *your* pbp of Tfrnga... to this point. Much of the Tfrnga experience still comes down to technology on the USN side and of course firing long after the optimal solution had passed. Since we're talking about a game engine, *if* the UV engine becomes the engine for resolving naval combat in WitP (my primary interest), *then* the engine must consider SG radar and other initial circumstances. It is entirely possible in other island groups that circumstances might favor a meeting engagement where visual observation occurs at short ranges, or that more ships will have SG radar. Alot is going to depend on how much control the players are given over refit and so forth.

The real trick, then, is to assign probabilities of successful attacks that are consistent with historical hit rates, and that allow these same kinds of results to occur even if the battles occur elsewhere. It means that you have to accept the notion that more than one Tfrnga or Balikpapan might occur and look at the circumstances that favor hit rates as high as 12% at night.

Odds that the IJN would *launch* an initial salvo torp attack would be what, about 25%? And for a USN desron in 1942, say, about 10% initially, with possible increase of, say, 1% per engagement? (Again, the "virus model" of information dissemination seems to apply). If one uses the proposed Desron or TF "Group Experience" ratings mentioned in the WitP threads, then this can be tracked by Desron. You'd have higher chances for USN desrons that started the war operating together, and those that trained and deployed together as the war continued.

Re accuracy, "ability to fire or ability to hit" or "success." (1) Much of the IJN's ability to hit was contingent upon initial conditions that favored the IJN that had nothing to do with the relative experiences of the opponents. (2) The lousy hit rates achieved by the IJN on many occasions (*do* remember: modal hit rate zero, mean hit rate 6%, good hit rates 8-12%, statistical outliers in the 25% range) must be duplicated by the game engine. One would expect the better hit rates (setting aside statistical outliers for reasons that are obvious on statistical grounds and in looking at the actions in question) when one of the 5 circumstances that I mentioned exsists.

Finally, on a note that does not necessarily applly to the thread, *if* IJN night training was all that evident in combat, then one would expect them to have substantially better hit rates or at least less varied, *or else* one would have to suspect that strong circumstantial factors were in toto more deterministic than night training.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
Drongo
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Post by Drongo »

Posted by mdiehl
It was an editing error on my part. I wrote factors 1-4 and the preceding sentence then added #5 (and should have edited out the "Tfrnga is a glaring exception" sentence).

Understood. I would've assumed that normally but I had to question it given the way it was embedded in the other text.
Drongo, I will concede the point that the USN DDs acting on their own would be *less* likely to launch a coordinated multi-ship attack in 1942 based on *your* pbp of Tfrnga... to this point. Much of the Tfrnga experience still comes down to technology on the USN side and of course firing long after the optimal solution had passed. Since we're talking about a game engine, *if* the UV engine becomes the engine for resolving naval combat in WitP (my primary interest), *then* the engine must consider SG radar and other initial circumstances. It is entirely possible in other island groups that circumstances might favor a meeting engagement where visual observation occurs at short ranges, or that more ships will have SG radar. Alot is going to depend on how much control the players are given over refit and so forth.
If your concession is a recognition that the more extensive night training/experience/etc. by the IJN should be considered as one of the several accepted determinents that influence the outcome of battles fought in '42 (in UV), then I'm happy to lay that side of the debate to rest.

As to the rest of your points made in your previous post, I'll just give my general thoughts.

SG and SC radars are already modelled in UV. In my experience, they work in 2 ways. Firstly, they increase the chance of one TF "finding" another in a shared location (to bring about battle). Secondly, they increase the detection levels of enemy ships during a battle (this means the individual enemy ships are more likely to be spotted and therefore targeted). SG is better than SC at both these tasks.

In regards to assigning hit probabilities that also take into account initial conditions (which is a valid arguement, IMO), I think you would really be pushing things to get that one recognised if WitP stays primarily with the UV engine. The existing engine calculates hit probabilities based on weapon, range, crew experience and the ship captain's naval skill (according to the manual). No mention is made of things like speed but I think that would have to be in there somewhere (given that, IMO, slow moving ships tend to be hit by torps more often than faster ships).

I can understand that you don't wan't to purchase a game that you aren't interested in playing (UV). However, given that it seems that Matrix intend to use the UV engine as a basis for WitP (the real game you want), I really would suggest you get a copy of UV (2nd hand?) and have a good look at what the routines currently are like. This way, if you are dissatisfied after seeing the routines first hand (knowing your attitude to GG games, that'll be a fact:p ), you will at least be able to discuss your own game objections with Matrix prior to WitP being finalised (rather than just relying on player comments as a guide).

Not only would this give you a better position in the WitP discussions but it may also allow you to forgo paying out twice the money (of UV) to buy WitP, if your experience with UV (and discussions with Matrix) indicate to you that WitP will not turn out to be the game you were hoping for.

Who knows, we might end up being able to settle some of our disagreements over a nice, friendly :mad: PBEM of WitP (if you buy it).
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
mdiehl
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

Post by mdiehl »

Not only would this give you a better position in the WitP discussions


Philosophically I disagree. I own many PTO games and several computer ones, including PW (which was "satisfactory" but just barely... there's lots of room for substantial improvement of the assumptions and combat resolution routines merely through quantitative research). My knowledge and experience qualifies me to comment on the results produced by *any* game dealing with the theater, regardless of ownership.

I'm very very wary of the "Japan was more experience at and so should be better at" line of reasoning because I do not see in the historical results that extensive training or prior combat experience got them very much. In air combat (a discussion that has been set aside for the moment, although parties may still disagree), the most that could be said is that the extensive training in the wrong tactics substantially hurt the Japanese. In night surface combat (this thread), things that ought to have manifest themselves as a Japanese advantage at night (gun accuracy, torpedo accuracy) were *very very very* spotty. From my POV, the differences between Allied and IJN torp success in 1942 comes down primarily to initial conditions of each engagement and the weapon itself. If we assume that the chaos at Tfrnga among the DD line is "typical" (not necessarily a warrantable assumption), then there is a higher chance of the IJN conducting a poster "Yamamoto" multi-ship torp doctrine attack.

I'm also wary about the "Japanese experience made them better at..." line of reasoning, because of the way these assumptions have been actualized by Grigsby/Matrix in PW. Again, with PW, very flawed assumptions about experience led to an absurd air combat model. From the AARs posted in this forum, the absurdity apparently continues. (I scoff *every* time I read about a huge Japanese CAP, or every time 3 Allied CVs see their a/c dribbled out and destroyed in detail, while IJN CVS launch massive coordinated strikes. It *never* happened that way in CV vs CV combat for either the IJN or the USN until the Allies began employing really improved CAC in mid 1943. Against fixed targets anyone could display outstanding plane handling. Against enemy CVs, both sides demonstrated that doctrine and training were inadequate in 1942 with respect to plane handling and CAP control.)

So, in UV/WitP, "Experience," for night combat, day combat, air combat, submarine attacks, ASW, land combat, ship unloading, radar spotting, or anywhere else it is invoked as a number that affects performance in the model used by the game ought to produce real-seeming results and possibly should be based on someting quantitatively verifiable, rather than pulling a number that sounds nice out of thin air.
I really would suggest you get a copy of UV (2nd hand?) and have a good look at what the routines currently are like.


Unless they're giving away source code with the software, there's no way to have a useful look at the combat resolution subroutines.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
Drongo
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Location: Melb. Oztralia

Post by Drongo »

Posted by mdiehl
Unless they're giving away source code with the software, there's no way to have a useful look at the combat resolution subroutines.

Observation and analysis of cause and effect (the good 'ol basics) can give a fairly good idea of what's going on (plus a basic knowledge of programming).

Might be fun to see the code but in terms of having any more inluence on Matrix's/2x3's game design, I doubt a customer telling a software programmer which lines of code they should change to improve the game would go down too well.

I would hope you get some satisfaction from WitP but I'd bet that it's still just a giant UV with some add ons (but still effectively the same engine). I was disappointed with the treatment of tactical combat when I got the game. In the end, though, they're just a means to an end and if that end is an enjoyable and (semi) balanced game that gives you (some) historical feel, then it was worth the money. Doesn't mean I won't be queueing up with the rest, asking for just one more game tweak.
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
herbieh
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Location: Sydney Australia

Im happy

Post by herbieh »

Had my first real all in brawl last night, seemed pretty accurate to me, what Id really love to see is this:
When 1 ton of explosive hits a CL or DD, sometimes large parts of the hull disappear, or hulls even sometimes split in two.
Imagine watching the animations and bang, down go a ship just like that ( This did happen occasionally during the war, ie battle of Java sea):eek:
i havent seen anything representing a instant loss of a ship, wish there was a very random chance of this happening( "massive internal explosion, magazine explosion")watching say the Nagato or North Carolina doing a Hood would really mess up some ones day:D

PS Beer is good.
PPS, introducing carrier air AFTER the brawl is beautiful to watch, 107 vals Vs a crippled Canberra.
Banzia!:)
Big seas, Fast ships, life tastes better with salt
Drongo
Posts: 1391
Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:03 pm
Location: Melb. Oztralia

Post by Drongo »

Posted by Herbieh
When 1 ton of explosive hits a CL or DD, sometimes large parts of the hull disappear, or hulls even sometimes split in two.


Over a hundred posts discussing the finer points of naval combat in the Pacific Theatre and all you want to see is pretty pictures of ships blowing up???? Tsk Tsk. :rolleyes:
PS Beer is good.
Patriot :D :D :D
PPS, introducing carrier air AFTER the brawl is beautiful to watch, 107 vals Vs a crippled Canberra.
Traitor :mad: :mad: :mad:
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
herbieh
Posts: 804
Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:54 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Finer aspects

Post by herbieh »

Finer aspects of naval warfare!! Buggar me. I reckon anygame that rewards my magnificant tactics is great by me, any that punishes me for stuff ups even better. Thats why I like this game!
Mind you, pretty pictures are good too.

On being a traitor.
For twenty years I struggled to maintain and keep going rusty bloody RAN heaps of ****, watching them go down is very perverse but very satisfying. All politicians should play this game and see what inadequate defence budgets mean- ie wirriways.

Still, beer is good
UV is bloody fantastic
These forums are beaut too
BANZIA
:D
Big seas, Fast ships, life tastes better with salt
Drongo
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:03 pm
Location: Melb. Oztralia

Post by Drongo »

BUGGA BANZIA, BLOODY BONZA!!!
Have no fear,
drink more beer.
TIMJOT
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Post by TIMJOT »

mdiehl says:

" If IJN night training was all that evident in combat, then one would expect them to have substantially better hit rates or at least less varied or else one would have to suspect that strong circumstantial factors were more determilistic than night training"



The above statement begs the question. As compared to what? The USN?; RN?; Kreigsmarine?; Suprema Marina? Even excepting Csareneki's probable average hit rate of 6.7%. Did any navy in WWII have a better *average* hit rate at night (sans radar)? We know the USN did not. Im am not sure about the others but I suspect they did not. If not , then for all we know 6.7% was the optimum level achievable useing the technology of the time and the IJN was only able to attain this rate through there rigorous night training.

Just to be perfectly clear Im talking about *average* hit rates, not single engagements.
John Carney
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Location: Tampa FL

Post by John Carney »

After reading the US Navy after action reports for battle of Guadalcanal and Tassafaronga, and watching the interviews of different USN officers and IJN sailors who survived those battles, I will have to strongly disagree with mdiehl about pre war training.

Both men stationed on US destroyers as gunnery officer, were very clear that the action of battle was driven by gun action. The assignment of a non line officer was common to the torpedo launches, since they were considered a defensive weapon.
The surviving IJN sailors clearly stated that the main weapon of their destroyer was the torpedo. IJN training was to position their destroyer to launch a torpedo strike at the opposing ships.

The US destroyers training in torpedo attack is based on the inability of the line to cross the T or split the opposing force. The recommended tactic was that the Van or Lead destroyers would turn into the enemy, fire torpedoes and guns, and retire laying smoke, to protect the line ships movement into a better firing position or angle of evasion (US naval text 1932 West Point).

Many US admirals also believed the torpedo to be the sneak weapon of the submariner. This also follows your assertion of DD experience post 1930 (a 1932 DD commander graduating class of 1926 would be a line captain in 1940 eligible for commodore promotion in 1944 under normal pre war progression). After WWI the torpedo did not reach the status of chemical weapon, but close. It was considered an unethical weapon of unrestricted warfare.

Since the training of the IJN officers focused on the torpedo as a first strike attack weapon and the US Navy focused on the gun. This implies to me that even though the destroyer’s command and personnel understand how to conduct the torpedo attack, the US destroyers would be unlikely to break from their line position to do so, and few US admirals would even ponder their use.

I clearly feel that a possible first sneak volley of torpedoes by IJN needs to be modeled in UV surface combat routine as this was their pre war doctrine, but that a US surprise attack would be guns and torpedoes allowing return fire from IJN force.
mdiehl
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2000 8:00 am

Post by mdiehl »

That's nice, John, but not all the 1942 engagements were "gun & torpedo" attacks. Balikpapan was a clear cut example of one long, continuous, unethical "sneak" attack. If the USN DD commodores were so averse to it, and if doctrine was so set against it, why'd they *do* it? It's related to your post about the gun line, I think, but I've been over that ground vis my POV.

Second, no one disputes that the IJN trained to a torpedo doctrine, or that the tactics of USN DDs subservient to a gun-line would emphasisze gunfire. The question for much of my contribution to this thread has been what USN (or RN, Dutch, NZ, Australian) would do in the absence of a CA gun-line.
Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?
John Carney
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Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2002 5:16 am
Location: Tampa FL

Post by John Carney »

As an ad-hoc group or retreating cover force, they would use a torpedo attack. A captain on his own fighting for survival will do what is best for his chance of returning home.
As a formed task group under command, they would use gun line tactics I believe.
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