Salutations and solicitations.... 1EyedJacks (J) vs Nemo (A)

[Nemo121]

Hmm, lots to think about there. I'm going to have a look at the editor and figure out how that works in practice. I think that it comes down to a philosophical difference....

You, and the design team in general, have tried to hew a line in which the game is part simulation and part historical wargame insofar as it models the conflict but you want it to unfold along certain general lines and have put in constraints to make sure it does so. Once that happens assumptions about force destruction and replacement which were historical but may have no basis in the particular strategies being followed in-game become reasonable choices.

My view is that this is a game system in which I want the combat model to be as accurate as possible and the starting positions to be as accurate as possible ( or a little enhanced for a fun game ) but once the "Go" button is pressed then anything that could happen in real life ( even if it didn't ) is fair game. This means that force creation or restriction based on the historical way things turned out is antithetical to this free-flowing, open concept.

I think that's where the difference lies really. My initial take is just to undo all the permanent restrictions and have them ordinarily restricted and leave it at that.



In terms of the game....

1EyedJacks is crowing about sinking about a dozen xAKls and a few xAKs and xAPs around Singapore/Sumatra but this tells me much about him....
a) He is massively misusing KB in a most serious manner. He is using his most powerful force, a force capable of decisive strategic decision when applied at a critical point to dominate an area of no more than 12 x 12 hexes running from Singapore south to Balikpapan and from Palembang to Brunei. This is a trifling area to control and also a serious misuse of this asset. Merely by docking KB he could threaten far more than these 150 or so hexes.

b) He is actually celebrating the sinking of the shipping around Sumatra.... Last turn he sank about a dozen xAKls and downed about 18 Dutch fighters. In return, however, KB lost roughly the same number of planes.

In return for these sinkings what did I achieve?
1. I managed to have Force Z escape from Manilla.
2. I managed to pull both 223rd and 224th RAF HQs out of Singapore.
3. I managed to land several UK, Indian and Ozzie forces at Oosthaven.

Overall I think that he's sunk a few ships but, strategically, I'm achieving my goals... Its a crazy, crazy situation.

Currently Sumatra has some 910 AV defending it, 3 Aerial HQs capable of allowing torpedo supply ( and I have about 80 Catalinas and another 40 or so UK torpedo bombers which can launch torpedoes --- giving me a salvo strength of some 200 torpedoes per day once an invasion TF shows itself ) and can fly in about 50 AV per day from the Dutch. The more I look at it the more I think I should be able to fly significant portions of the Malaysian defenders out also.

I'm aiming, at present, for a total defensive strength of 1600 AV by the end of December behind Level 4 fortifications and with roughly 500 planes deployed between 3 main airbases. If I can make it to mid-January then I have a cunning and malevolent plan which should boost my defences significantly.

That will have to depend on Mike continuing his significant mis-deployment of strategic assets though. KB can dominate wherever it goes. If it leaves this area I'll have to scrap my plans, if it stays here then I have strategic freedom ( which is crazy this early on in the war ).

[Andy Mac]

Just to add my tuppence worth on this one because I was more or less responsible for the restricted nature of LCU's at least on the allied side.
 
We also faced a tough decision about what units to make permanently restricted and being brutally honest some of it was done for play balance reasons.
 
Certainly the bits i did
 
There arent actually that many units outside of China permanently restricted.
 
For the CW and Brits
 
the Malay Bns and SSVF units i.e. the locally raised militias are perm restricted as they would not have left their homeland if ordered to go to India 90% would have deserted....thats why those units are perm restricted
 
the same logic should apply to the burmese but as they had more Indian/Ghurka units and a low replacement rate for the main squads so I made the on balance decision that they should not be perm restricted
 
Australia nothing is perm restricted
 
NZ a mix is perm restricted the local small 'town base forces' are perm restricted as are about 40% of the mitilia largely because there is no way the Kiwis would abandon their entire homeland and the local economies were so dependent on those bases that it just was never going to happen - its slightly questionable but if I hadnt done it every one of those smal town base forces would have been stripped out of NZ and sent to the front so I think its the right call.
 
China - Chiang could barely control them the thought of Chinese Armies Amphib assaulting Java is just nuts so they are all perm restricted esxcept for a couple of Armies that may be bouth out.
 
India - only really the frontier Bds (perm restricted because these were more or less permanent locations that had existed for a hundred years they just werent available for overseas service) and a few other small ISF units that had legal reasons for not being allowed to be deployed elsewhere are perm restricted
 
Dutch - most of the combat units are not perm restricted - about 70% of the base forces are perm restricted agaion the mis was to try and stop the generic base forces using standard av support and eng devices filling back up in a way that just wasnt possible due to lack of dutch soldiers - I allowed about 8 to be unrestricted the rest were tied down
 
PI - It was the same logic tell them to go to Australia and most would go guerilla or go home the thought of a 10 Div PI force in Australia is one of those it could never happen things
 
 
 

[Nemo121]

Aye, for the Malaysian and PI units I agree. Same for most of the Chinese ( although maybe not their New Divisions )...

In short, I don't have much of a problem with the LCU perma-restrictions... I might change a few but essentially I drew the conclusion that you were modelling "native levies" as being perma-restricted and agreed with it.

My problem really comes with American units and the like which are perma-restricted. I will be changing them cause I think USAAF squadrons could have redeployed if political considerations had been different.

Thanks for the explanation though. It is illuminating and, I think, will help others when trying to come to terms with this perma-restriction issue.

[Andy Mac]

Most of the US LCU's that are permanent restricted are units that are heading out of theatre to Torch etc so they were available to preserve the West Coast but not really for overseas service.
 
Unless you increase PP's you will barely have enough to get the units you need to buy out bought out

[Andy Mac]

The New Divs were hard some served with NCAC so you get those but the rest were really depositaries for Chiangs gifts from the US which is why they get a stronger TOE but he was never goign to let them go as they were his weapons for fighting Mao and keeping the rest of the Warlords in line

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Aye, for the Malaysian and PI units I agree. Same for most of the Chinese ( although maybe not their New Divisions )...

In short, I don't have much of a problem with the LCU perma-restrictions... I might change a few but essentially I drew the conclusion that you were modelling "native levies" as being perma-restricted and agreed with it.

My problem really comes with American units and the like which are perma-restricted. I will be changing them cause I think USAAF squadrons could have redeployed if political considerations had been different.

Thanks for the explanation though. It is illuminating and, I think, will help others when trying to come to terms with this perma-restriction issue.

Regarding the restriction of allies following a historical pre defined path is shown even more in the Japanese naval and air OOB . Many ships and aircraft were built and / modified based on certain results esp Midway eg the Ibuki as CVL , Mogami and Ise Conversions to name just a few...The introduction of CV based air lost priority etc . The crippling of merchant capacity reduced the planned warships and quality ( and massively boosted merchant production) which also would not have occured had Japan used a Convoy system since 1941. PI restrictions are just the tip of the iceberg yet it becomes more and more difficult to handle the what iffs. I heard someone was planning a mod with basic hulls with conversions to anything and hence the player can choose what he wants.

[Q-Ball]

Nemo, interesting read, I appreciate your strategic outlook which is why I am going to be following this AAR.

I will be following the Southern Sumatra gambit, because I think it does speak to the Allied grand strategic objectives. I personally think the Allies have only 2 grand strategic objectives:

1. Stop the flow of OIL/FUEL from the DEI to Japan, by destroying Oil facilities, sinking TKs, occupying territory, whatever....just stop it
2. Secure a sufficient platform from which to strategically bomb Japan, and be able to get supplies to it.

Period, the end. The Southern Sumatra campaign speaks to #1.

[bigred]

Reguarding the Singers evac plan to Palembang.. Can you base some FT at Palembang and order a evac run up tp Singers every turn?

[Nemo121]

Yeah I've tried doing that but I can't get FT TFs to work at all. Are there pre-conditions I need to fulfill in terms of the troops being in a specific mode?... I've tried it with both strategic move and combat opmode troops but no joy....

What I have found strange is that when I try to fly ABDA units ( e.g. at Kuching etc ) into bases which don't already have ABDA troops in I get a "Can't move restricted troops" message but once I have some ABDA troops in my southern Sumatra base I can THEN fly ABDA troops from anywhere on the map into it.

In addition basing an FT TF at Palembang would just have KB sink it... Right now I plan to just send a trickly of AKls in to keep him occupied there whilst saving up my proper AKs and APs ( with the British and Commonwealth contingents ) for later on when KB moves back to refuel and reprovision.


I get another USN CV in 10 days, which would give me 4 USN CVs... It does make one think doesn't it? Even with crappy fighters I'm sure that many CVs, backed up by a significant portion of the USN fleet could probably achieve something significant.... certainly a very useful spoiling force.

Apart from the CVs I am positioning some forces for a spoiling attack into some Japanese territory. I don't intend to hold it but I do intend to cause him to begin diverting some forces along axes not of his choosing. That'll tend to remove forces from the tip of the spear at Palembang and might buy me some time.

[bigred]

If the jap port strikes your DDs at palembang as the TF evac return what happens to the refinery?

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Yeah I've tried doing that but I can't get FT TFs to work at all. Are there pre-conditions I need to fulfill in terms of the troops being in a specific mode?... I've tried it with both strategic move and combat opmode troops but no joy....

Check to see that the Allied ships you are putting into a FT TF actually have a dedicated capacity to carry troops. This is one reason why Allied APDs are useful.

Alfred

[Nemo121]

I've been reading AARs and have come to a few tentative conclusions/hypotheses...

1. Both sides are on a major learning curve and thus most players are very much hewing to the conventional wisdom --- which in the early days of any situation tends toward the conventional and cautious.


2. Where Allied players HAVE fought forward they either:
a) are destroyed rapidly and relatively piecemeal or
b) they tend to concentrate and manage to hold a toehold ( at massive cost ) from which they can harrass and expand at a later date.

Which group one falls into tends to be determined by the interface between one's own cautiousness and the enemy's aggressiveness. The more cautious the Allied player and aggressive the Japanese player the more likely the Allied player is to get destroyed piecemeal. I think this AAR might provide an opportunity to examine the obverse.


3. Very few players of either side are intentionally seeking to complicate their opponent's strategic situation ( either at all or sufficiently ). When they do try it oftentimes they are only complicating his operational or, even, tactical situation. What's worse the Allied players tend to try to complicate the situation less than the Japanese players.


4. Whenever there's a focus on initiative it is all too often focussed on the simplistic concept of gaining the initiative --- and, if we're honest, the conventional wisdom among Allied players means that, for most of them, it consists of bemoaning the possibility of gaining the initiative until such time as the flow of material makes said gaining of initiative inevitable... and when logistics make something inevitable one doesn't need to exercise a lot of competence to make it so... although sometimes people do manage to make the inevitable evitable [8D]

Anyways, I haven't seen a single instance where anyone has intentionally utilised the enemy's maintenance of initiative to manoeuvre that enemy into a killsack of the player's choosing. This is a major mistake, I don't have time to get into it in detail now but I'll give a very simple overview which misses out the complexities which really constitute the mind-f**k portions of the operation.

Initiative is ONLY useful to an enemy as long as that enemy uses that appropriately.... What is appropriate usage? Either for attritional, positional or indirect advantage. Attritional - killing yours at a more advantageous exchange rate than you kill his. Note that doesn't mean killing more of yours than you kill of his but merely a more advantageous exchange rate. Less than 1:1 exchange rates can still be more than adequate for a given force, position or time. Positional - Taking crucial terrain which has strategic/operational and tactical value can be useful. Indirect advantage - Anything which isn't positional or attritional but still gains advantage - often operations aimed at shaping the battlefield for a decisive strike at a later date or just operations aimed at shaping the enemy's appreciation ( IOW, ensuring s/he misappreciates the situation ).

In attempting to wrest the initiative from an enemy you must expend men, materiel and the element of surprise --- as it is pretty difficult to mass a major force to surprise an enemy as they move on one of your bases if, for the past 2 months you've been fighting tooth and claw to prevent the enemy moving on that base. It'd take an idiot to think that after 2 months of fighting you won't mass a major force for its defence if it is at all possible --- Of course sometimes idiocy does strike but one shouldn't rely on it as a necessary component of a plan. In addition to the loss of surprise you are losing men and materiel to wrest the initiative such that when you spring your surprise it has less force behind it than it otherwise might have and, if your prior shaping of the battlefield hasn't been exquisite, in wresting the initiative from the enemy and towards a point of balance in which it could tip in either direction you now are in a situation in which you don't have the forces to wrest it fully in your direction --- and the last two months have been for nothing as the enemy regains the initiative.

So, why not let the enemy have the initiative and let him use that initiative to attack what you want, how you want and, if you've done your job well, when you want. Expend small forces to shape that battlefield so that the enemy commander chooses ( of his own volition ) to follow your plan. Shaping the battlefield should, if you do it right, cost less than trying to wrest the initiative and maintain the element of surprise. The end result is, hopefully, a much greater chance of winning the battle at the critical point and time ( fulcrum, if you will ) as you bring much greater force to bear with greater surprise than would otherwise be the case.


And yeah, it's all a fancy way of doing the Boyd shuffle [:D] OODA every time. I've seen people die for real when someone's OODA loop got overwhelmed and so I'm a believer. I should also point out that the cognitive dissonance between meeting resistance at a point where the enemy has been fighting for a significant period of time ( and thus there's little surprise ) is minimal compared to the dissonance which results when the enemy uses their initiative to place themselves in an unexpected position.


Right now Mike should be commenting about the minimal resistance he's seen. I expect he's referenced Sir Robin already but he's not a poor enough player to think that I'm Sir Robinning entirely. He's probably wondering where I'll strike... He half expects it in the Pacific and so he should be sending some reinforcements to bolster his defences there. I plan to 1,2 him in the Pacific showing him something he expects, another thing he half-expects and a third thing he never expected and which should rattle him, letting him feel he's still in control, then moving him a little more out of control and then finally forcing him to rethink his OODA loop for the Pacific entirely. This action in the Pacific will be designed to shape the battlefield in Sumatra and make sure he comes there at a time and in a manner and with a weight of my choosing.

How will it do that? Simple, I will control the inputs into the Observation portion of his OODA loop, by controlling their timing ( and metering them to my assessment of his abilities and personality --- which is coming together nicely ) I control his Orientation and through controlling those two aspects I should control both the tempo and substance of his Decision-making. Since geography and decisiveness determine the speed with which he can put his Decisions into Action ( in a low-friction environment like AE ) I should also have a pretty good idea of how quickly his decisions can be put into action at a particular point. To speed him up I can provide new inputs to his observation ( in-game ) and orientation ( via email ) which speak of weakness etc, to slow him down I merely meter out inputs ( either sightings, email comments or combats ) which should act to slow him down a little. Pretty simple in concept really.

By doing the above it is possible to get the enemy to think they are making the decisions ( and they are ), doing the planning ( and they are ) and deciding what to send where and when ( and they are ) all while they are, unintentionally, conforming their planning to your own, pre-dating plan. That's the best way to get them to swan into town dumb, fat and happy.


In other news: In friendly games I expect there to be a good fair fight but I dislike people seeking advantage for advantage sake. I have raised the issue of CD guns with Mike and suggested that we limit actual amphibious TFs to being escorted by "proper warships" like DDs, CLs, CAs etc and no more than 8 per amphibious TF. That way the CD guns get a fair bash at a few escorts and might hit a few AKs or APs. Mike has countered that he isn't sure this is fair ( even though it is designed to ameliorate the effect of a clear code defect ) and would like CD guns to be placed in Strategic Movement mode for 2/52 after arrival at any place if he were to countenance accepting it.

Personally I think that I was very clear that I would HR any code defects and find being asked to accept a further diminution in effectiveness in order for him to accept a HR which compensates for a code defect which massively favours him to be in somewhat questionable form. I'll give way on this if he insists but I should point out that as these PBEMs are relaxation and friendly I only apply very gentle, limited psyops within them, guiding people a bit this way or that. If he now turns down a HR for broken code - which was the one stipulation I had when agreeing the game - then he should expect the psyops to be significantly more weapons free... and full-on psyops will probably be significantly less enjoyable for him as guiding someone a bit one way or the other is gentle... targetting their faith in their own judement and increasing their stress levels etc is significantly less gentle and something I would find excessive in a friendly game. But... if this is a game where he seeks advantage from HRs then I amn't going to tie my hands behind my back.

[Smeulders]

I don't think any HR is really needed for CD guns, the problem with the PH invasions seem to be that the algorithm gets in trouble in outlier battles with hundreds of ships, I've yet to see problems with smaller CD gun formations against smaller landings.

[bklooste]

Agree the invasion change would greatly aid Japan ..I think limiting the invasions to 8 ships is a bit small but banning sub DD escorts is appropopriate. Bonbardment forces cant really help too much since bombard seems not very potent , i doubt they will hit the CD units leaving them unsurpressed for the landing phase.

What do you think about using your CV units from land as they are or using refittin with less valueble planes / pilots ? Especially for Java /Palambang ?

[Nemo121]

bklooste,

Just to be clear... I amn't arguing that invasion TFs should be limited to 8 ships. I am arguing they should have no more than 8 escorts and those escorts should be DD or above in size. They can be accompanied by as many bombardment TFs, SC TFs etc as the other player wants BUT they shouldn't be allowed to stack the amphibious TF with so many low-value ships that the APs and AKs are, effectively, immune to coastal defences due to the CD gun regime's coding.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 9th Infantry Regiment, at 81,80

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-17D Fortress x 13


Allied aircraft losses
B-17D Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
96 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 6000 feet *
Ground Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 6000 feet *
Ground Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 6000 feet *
Ground Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
2 x B-17D Fortress bombing from 6000 feet *
Ground Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb

Also attacking Kimura Det ...
Also attacking 16th Engineer Regiment ...
Also attacking 20th Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking Kimura Det ...

I have moved some 750 AV down south of Manilla in the hopes of defeating the IJA landings near Legaspi in detail. I'm splitting my forces and leaving Manilla quite understrength for a period of time but I think it is worth the risk as destroying this landing would give me significantly improved mobility in the Phillipines and will garner quite a bit of experience for my troops. It should also make Mike a bit more cautious with his landings and buy me even more time for Sumatra.

It also looks like ground attacks on enemy troops are increasingly effective. Good to know, I think I've found a use for all my Dutch bombers.


Afternoon Air attack on 192nd Tank Battalion, at 81,80

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 45



Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 6 damaged


Allied ground losses:
Vehicles lost 14 (3 destroyed, 11 disabled)


Aircraft Attacking:
15 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
15 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
15 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

I was worried when I saw these losses, I thought I'd just lost about 1/3rd of my tanks but, fortunately, it appears most of the disablements were repaired by the combat the next day.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 81,80

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 10922 troops, 114 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 365

Defending force 4309 troops, 0 guns, 207 vehicles, Assault Value = 260

Japanese adjusted assault: 142

Allied adjusted defense: 140

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
1324 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 66 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 73 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled


Allied ground losses:
192 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 15 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 64 (5 destroyed, 59 disabled)


Assaulting units:
9th Infantry Regiment
16th Engineer Regiment
20th Infantry Regiment
Kimura Det

Defending units:
194th Tank Battalion
1st PA Constabulary Regiment
192nd Tank Battalion
2nd PA Constabulary Regiment

So, overall, I disabled a lot more squads but they should be repaired within a couple of days. This should draw the remaining LCUs up from Legaspi and as they arrive so should my reinforcements. It appears that the Japanese have about 15,000 troops at 81,80 and 5,000 at Legaspi. So, let's assume he boosts his AV from 365 to 450. I will have about 750 AV and even with a halving for my experience levels if I combine the assault with aerial attacks I think I might have a chance of pushing the Japanese back.

The high-experience US Regiment in the Phillipines is also on the way but is more than 2 days away. I'm tempted to wait for it in any case as I expect that its extra experience should come in very handy but I'm wary of more IJA forces landing.

In other news, KB continued cruising down the straits between Java and Borneo and sank a damaged British DD - Thanet - west of Kendari. Force Z and the various CLs and CAs defending Java all managed to get away in time so my naval defence remains intact.

Today I also received my first Hurricane II (Tropical ) and have immediately loaded it for transport to Sumatra. Hopefully this'll fare better than the Buffaloes. 2 groups of AVG are also now based at Palembang. I figure that 48 planes of AVG and another 16 or so Hurricane IIs is a good basis for my aerial defence.

[bklooste]

Just to be clear... I amn't arguing that invasion TFs should be limited to 8 ships. I am arguing they should have no more than 8 escorts and those escorts should be DD or above in size. They can be accompanied by as many bombardment TFs, SC TFs etc as the other player wants BUT they shouldn't be allowed to stack the amphibious TF with so many low-value ships that the APs and AKs are, effectively, immune to coastal defences due to the CD gun regime's coding.

Cant argue with that , 8 is enough and i agree with DD+ .... Your oponents aar made it sound like 8 ships. And i think its to his advantage as after mid 42 he wont be making many invasions....

[bklooste]

What are your fellings on Java ? You cant get much out . Im leaning towards moving nearly everything in Surabaya to Samurang and Batavia to Mirak if they do land at Surabaya or Batavia i will loose in 1-2 days but the CDs will get me more than i get for the whole Java campaign normally  esp with a Destroyer + house rule .

[Nemo121]

bklooste,
I don't care about advantage. My goal is to get something fair to both sides. I think this is.

you can't get much out.

Really? No, I think I should be able to evacuate almost every soldier and plane from Java into Sumatra. I have PBYs and Do-24s as well as some DC2s and DC3s in the area. I have the capability of flying roughly 600 to 800 men per day into Sumatra. At present I am using the PBY-4s to fly in the far-lying garrisons ( Menado etc ) while the PBY-5s focus on flying in troops from Tarakan, Balikpapan, Kuching and the DC2s and DC3s focus on flying in nearby troops.

I'm stripping the small forces out of bases like Miri, Kuching, Balikpapan etc as those bases can't hope to stand against the Japanese invasion TFs and so it is better to consolidate their forces in bases which CAN benefit from the extra troops.


Right now I have over 40,000 troops in Sumatra, including over 300 Aviation support points, just under 200 engineers and have Level 3 forts at Palembang and Level 2 forts at Oosthaven.

As KB has evacuated the area to replenish I have decided to send in about a half-dozen transports to Singapore to pull out the first of the combat units there assigned to III Indian Corps. I expect Mike will try to stop me so I've sent 2 AVG units and a few Buffalo squadrons in to help out. Hopefully that will negatively impact his air raids.

I have also decided that I am going to try to get Palembang up to just over 100,000 tons of supplies and to that aim I am creating a supply convoy in India which is going to try to bring 60,000 tons+ into Oosthaven. The goal here is to get enough supplies to allow rapid rebuilding of forces.... I also think that if I get 100,000 tons of supplies I might be able to disband some of the small Dutch units I save into the pool and allow their troops to go into more rapid rebuilding of the larger Dutch units.

In short, if he doesn't hit Java by mid-January I will have all of the Dutch troops evacuated ( except for whatever can't be air-transported ). Obviously though I mightn't focus just on the Dutch until mid-January. I will probably fly out a few UK Base Forces and portions of the Commonwealth defenders of Singapore at the same time.

This will allow me to get close to or reach my target of 800 AV per base ( oosthaven and Palembang.... Benkoenen will get a lot less as it is less likely to be invaded --- my understanding is that since I hold Oosthaven it would function as a strait and allow my CD guns to pummel enemy forces passing through that strait on the way to Benkoenen) behind Level 6 forts. I certainly don't expect that to stop him but it should hurt him and, if he comes in at Oosthaven, he will find me hunker up at Palembang in a suicidal defence which will necessitate him attacking multiple times, with each attack destroying significant portions of the OIL and REFINERY industries there.... and that's the overall goal behind this, crippling the Japanese economy.


In the war today his subs sank a couple of transports on the way to Singers and he launched a few bombing raids in China. Overall though my troops in China are making it to their new defensive positions ( or delay positions ) and are concentrating nicely. So far it looks like, at most, 2 or 3 poorly positions armies which were off the road networks at the start of the game will be surrounded. In effect the vast bulk of the Chinese forces will have been saved and concentrated into a much more defensible line. He can still pound them into dust with his Kwantung artillery but them's the breaks [8D]. The supply situation isn't good so I'm looking at sending another 4 or 5 Chinese Corps into Burma to help ease the supply requirements in China.

[bklooste]

Thanks for your reply .

I don't care about advantage. My goal is to get something fair to both sides. I think this is.

Just trying to see why he doesnt think this is fair..

you can't get much out.

Really? No, I think I should be able to evacuate almost every soldier and plane from Java into Sumatra. I have PBYs and Do-24s as well as some DC2s and DC3s in the area. I have the capability of flying roughly 600 to 800 men per day into Sumatra. At present I am using the PBY-4s to fly in the far-lying garrisons ( Menado etc ) while the PBY-5s focus on flying in troops from Tarakan, Balikpapan, Kuching and the DC2s and DC3s focus on flying in nearby troops.

Must try that by air thought most of it was restricted. Why cant you pull it out to Burma then ? Or is that why you need a ADBA unit there ?

I'm stripping the small forces out of bases like Miri, Kuching, Balikpapan etc as those bases can't hope to stand against the Japanese invasion TFs and so it is better to consolidate their forces in bases which CAN benefit from the extra troops.


Right now I have over 40,000 troops in Sumatra, including over 300 Aviation support points, just under 200 engineers and have Level 3 forts at Palembang and Level 2 forts at Oosthaven.

As KB has evacuated the area to replenish I have decided to send in about a half-dozen transports to Singapore to pull out the first of the combat units there assigned to III Indian Corps. I expect Mike will try to stop me so I've sent 2 AVG units and a few Buffalo squadrons in to help out. Hopefully that will negatively impact his air raids.

I have also decided that I am going to try to get Palembang up to just over 100,000 tons of supplies and to that aim I am creating a supply convoy in India which is going to try to bring 60,000 tons+ into Oosthaven. The goal here is to get enough supplies to allow rapid rebuilding of forces.... I also think that if I get 100,000 tons of supplies I might be able to disband some of the small Dutch units I save into the pool and allow their troops to go into more rapid rebuilding of the larger Dutch units.

The small units do have the advantage of soaking up his air attacks.

Are you thinking about a higher fort level for Palembang ? Is it worth the supplies ?

In short, if he doesn't hit Java by mid-January I will have all of the Dutch troops evacuated ( except for whatever can't be air-transported ). Obviously though I mightn't focus just on the Dutch until mid-January. I will probably fly out a few UK Base Forces and portions of the Commonwealth defenders of Singapore at the same time.

This will allow me to get close to or reach my target of 800 AV per base ( oosthaven and Palembang.... Benkoenen will get a lot less as it is less likely to be invaded --- my understanding is that since I hold Oosthaven it would function as a strait and allow my CD guns to pummel enemy forces passing through that strait on the way to Benkoenen) behind Level 6 forts. I certainly don't expect that to stop him but it should hurt him and, if he comes in at Oosthaven, he will find me hunker up at Palembang in a suicidal defence which will necessitate him attacking multiple times, with each attack destroying significant portions of the OIL and REFINERY industries there.... and that's the overall goal behind this, crippling the Japanese economy.

If your removing everythign can you move and CDs to Miri and other bases you are not going to hold him long in Java and he is not going to land at Batavia /Surabayo so the guns tehre are almost useless.

Its great your able to do this under the nose of KB well worth the losses. When invading Sumatra i normally invade Medan and use paratroopers at the smaller places. Are you giving him Medan ( the roads between North and the SOuth are terrible).? With so many assets you may be able to base some 4E there and do strategic bombing on Miri , Tarakan and Balikpan . You probably wont do much /any damage but it may scare him and cause him to put some assets their.

Also for the final defence rather than comminting your cariers to the battle why not just refit your air groups with less experienced pilots and less usefull planes and put them to land . When its all over put them back on your CVs with experienced pilots and better/new planes. SHould give him a big surprise when those carriers visiti somewhere soon a few weeks later with decent air groups.

In the war today his subs sank a couple of transports on the way to Singers and he launched a few bombing raids in China. Overall though my troops in China are making it to their new defensive positions ( or delay positions ) and are concentrating nicely. So far it looks like, at most, 2 or 3 poorly positions armies which were off the road networks at the start of the game will be surrounded. In effect the vast bulk of the Chinese forces will have been saved and concentrated into a much more defensible line. He can still pound them into dust with his Kwantung artillery but them's the breaks [8D]. The supply situation isn't good so I'm looking at sending another 4 or 5 Chinese Corps into Burma to help ease the supply requirements in China.

What is happening at Ichang are you going to be like the other allied playes be sucked in by the prep values and waste all your supplies , lots of troops lost taking a not very important base from the Japanese for a few months ? Im most interested in your tactics in China as i think China in most AARs is played very sub standard.

[Nemo121]

Palembang makes 1,000 tons of supplies per day. Supplies aren't a problem at all. One of the reasons I chose southern Sumatra is that once the enemy cut it off completely from naval resupply ( as they will ) I will need to be able to maintain a defensive position for some time. The supply generation allows me to do this. 30,000 tons of supply per month buys a lot of AAA and artillery shells.

So, what fort level will I aim for? The maximum fort levels possible. I believe that's Level 9 forts for Palembang and Level 6 forts for Oosthaven.

you're not going to hold him long in Borneo/Java

No, but look at most AARs. Borneo and Java are death traps. Borneo features multiple isolated bases not a single one of which can withstand a sub-regimental invasion backed by long-range G3/4Ms on ground attack. So, why waste 50 AV per base when evacuating them from 5 bases gives you 250 AV in a concentrated group?

The mathematics is that he can use a single Regiment to take each of the 5 main Borneon region bases and kill all of my troops without significant losses to that regiment in a period of time not exceeding 3 weeks should he so wish. 250 AV added to significant defences + preparation in a concentrated area will necessitate him committing a much larger force ( at least a division+ ) for a period of less than 3 weeks. Add in the transport times etc and the fact that the Japanese can far more easily afford to divert a regiment for 3 weeks than a division for 2 and you see why this whole idea of "delaying" him in Borneo/Java is really illusory and strategically poor.

Looked at another way... If it takes him 2 days to ship to a base and another day to unload and another day to attack it takes an average of 4 days to take an undefended base. If I defend the base with 40 or so AV it will only cost him an extra day of unloading as he will need to wait till the entire regiment is ashore before attacking. End result, 50 AV buy me an additional day vs the IJA when compared with utterly abandoning the base. He can't afford to assume they are ever totally undefended as sometimes I wouldn't abandon and would, instead, reinforce, in order to catch him off guard and drive a regiment into the sea.

Anyways, with 5 large bases to take abandoning them all MIGHT cost me 5 days but will gain me 250 AV. That's a no-brainer.



Medan
He who tries to hold everything holds nothing. B17s can fly into Ceylon etc from Southern Sumatra so why not just base those B-17s in southern Java?

Cons: I lose Medan... It has only 60 AV so any time he wants it he can take it with a combat regiment backed by light bombers flying from Malaysia.

Pros:
It gives me another 60 AV with which to defend Southern Sumatra.
Allowing the Japanese to capture it while I hold Southern Sumatra will allow me to bomb it with B-17s from Southern Sumatra.
It gives me more engineers and aviation support for Southern Sumatra - which is what will help me there.
A regiment taking Medan will be a regiment which isn't participating in the fight for Southern Sumatra. I should encourage such misallocation of resources.

If Mike is good and/or cautious he will not take Medan until such time as he has taken Southern Sumatra. Since that's my strategic appreciation of what would benefit him most the next question becomes ---- After he takes Southern Sumatra will I be able to defend Medan? A: Absolutely not, he'll need 2000 AV+ to take Southern Sumatra and he'll only need to divert 100 AV to take Medan so once he takes Southern Sumatra Medan will fall as soon as his transports can bring troops there.

That thinking leads me to conclude that the 60 AV at Medan will help more at Oosthaven ( behind Level 6 forts ) than at Medan behind Level 1 or 2 forts and under the thumb of Japanese aviation.

Lastly, if he DOES take Medan early then I can turn that to my advantage too by bombing the OIL there and tieing down a fighter unit defending it. Win/win. Also, why use Medan to bomb OIL bases in southern Borneo when Southern Sumatra is significantly closer to those bases?


Also for the final defence rather than comminting your cariers to the battle
I don't recall ever saying that I would do this. Your logic escapes me.

As to your plan re: surprising him a few weeks later.... No I doubt it would. It is an obvious and common gambit and so putting the fighters and planes ashore to fight onshore to increase their experience level before flying them back to CVs and launching a raid somewhere won't be a surprise. It doesn't mean it is a bad idea but I don't think it'll be a surprise. No, instead I think I'll do something a bit more subtle with them.


Ichang
Capturing something which serves no strategic purpose and is, in itself, a trap for the Chinese would be a case of using the initiative to do exactly that which my opponent wants me to do and that which is entirely in my own worst interests. I certainly make mistakes but, hopefully, those mistakes occur because of insufficient intel etc. Ichang is a situation which is obvious from even a cursory look at the map. No, I have 4 Chinese LCUs there and am bombarding. I will launch an attack also purely in the interests of continuing to show Mike what he wants to see. If the attack succeeds I will have to make a show of following his forces and excitedly thinking I've gotten a gap in his front, along with some later comments about how much that trail hex south-west of Ichang is slowing the committment of my reserves and how this means his reserves will get to Sinyang and Hankow more quickly.

Obviously though it'll only be a charade to cover further retrograde movement of my own troops which are currently concentrating nicely around Yenan, Sian and Ankang in the north and Changsha etc in the south. These aren't final positions, merely initial defensive positions designed to get the enemy to deploy for combat and take all the time necessary to manoeuvre his flanking forces into position etc... at which time I'll run away to the real defensive line, having just bought myself another fortnight.

Generally in China I'm going to try to bring out 2 full Chinese Armies with a view to lessening the supply strain IN China and allowing what remains to be properly supplied and rebuilt. I plan to commit the artillery park, en masse in the south and see if I can't hurt him by bombarding his troops there. I have most troops in the south and so if I can hurt one prong of his advance I may consider rupturing his front there. Mostly though I am picking good defensive terrain and trying to minimise supply requirements such that I can rebuild the Chinese, let them survive in place and build experience. As time passes I'll thin the front as my units recover, form a strategic reserve and unleash it at a time and place of my choosing.... if all goes well.


Oh, amusingly enough I managed a surface intercept of KB as it was heading back to replenish. Britain lost a DD but I confirmed the makeup of KB and that nothing had split off for independent raiding ( a useful bit of intel which is allowing me to send more ships to Singapore and put Force Z into repair mode).

Zero losses are now confirmed to be over 100. That's got to be a serious dent in Zero numbers. I know he has more replacements than I but I still feel good that in A2A combat my P-40s under the most adverse of conditions are achieving a kill rate of roughly 0.9 Zeroes : 1 P40. If you isolate the P40Es then it is pretty much 1:1.