Some discussion of 1.0.5

[lostsm]

more for modding

[vengen]

ORIGINAL: Kruos

And I also add that even if you play at normal research rate, the advantage to have news races in your empire is so huge that colonization tech are pretty useless in fact.

The issue of the colonization techs being rendered useless illustrates what I consider to be a problem with the techs in general - the early techs take too long to research and the late techs get researched too fast. If you start with basic tech, SY-200 takes decades to research. Meanwhile, some of the races can't build destroyers and troop transports, while others can. The player can redesign around this problem, but I'm not sure the AI can. Hopefully, the tech timing will get some more attention in 1.05.

In my opinion, the diplomacy message problems also need to be addressed fairly soon. The way that the diplomacy messages currently lock the the player out of the diplomacy screen and the research window make it impossible to respond to AI empires in a intelligent manner. Plus, the problem of only being able to reply to the second of two diplomacy messages that arrive in rapid succession needs to be addressed also. These two issues seriously degrade the diplomatic portion of the game.

[Astax]

Measuring stuff by pixels seems like a poor choice in a game that has zoom feature. Unless you mean 2000 pixels at zoom factor 1.0f or something akin to that. Only problem is I am not sure when I am at 1.0f.

I would like "Engage nearby targets" to be default for patrol mission. Unless you tell it to patrol the whole system.

Let's not get too carried away with the new races suggestions Less someone suggest a race of machines that can colonize only barren worlds, and maybe Ice eventually... Oh wait can I suggest that? :O

Overall I would love to see more modding options. Like options to add more than 20 races, so that mod races become available. Options to set colonization of planets for a race that include planets not currently allowed, like barren and gas giant. This could lead to adding new races to the game via mods, which would be awesome. Unless you guys are deliberately holding that cat in the bag. And making any new races an expansion exclusive.

jscott991: I think if we eliminate the colonizing benefit it would be a huge nerf to exploration, as well as a nerf to buying info from pirates.  Though it may be not that game breaking.  I find that acquiring a race that can colonize a new planet is at first not so powerful, because they can only build colony ships at that planet, and one at a time. Unless I'm wrong.  Later it gets more easy to spam colony ships once you colonize a couple. This is probably a problem with how easy it is to build colony ships in general.

vengen: I agree with early techs taking too long to research. But it's probably a balance issue. After all you don't want ton of cheap techs that make your designs obsolete every other month. And you don't wont to be retrofitting nonstop in the early growth/expansion phase.  Also IMO focusing research should only divert all the tech points from that branch of the tech tree, i.e weapons, energy, high tech or habitation. Not the whole tech tree.

[Keston]

ORIGINAL: Arnir

I might have missed it, but will fleets start moving as a group and arriving as a group?

This can be handled simply by clickable toggle options on the fleet menu or info card in the left corner - move piecemeal or move together. SINS is similar.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.

I am pretty sure this is an intended. The documentation even TELLS you about it... yes, finding certain species and gaining them for your empire is awesome, and is a priority.
I like that mechanic and wouldn't want it "addressed".
Instead of the typical "terraforming" tech rush every other 4X space game has, you are required to find unique races... with them giving you the ability to colonize deserts and marshes early, and ice, volcanic, and ocean at all.

[Keston]

It is still usually a mad land rush to pick up planets and then the scraps, with settlements scattered around.

There is something to be said for borders in space, but not rigid ones.  Maybe a power could stake claims - if someone else settles, it hurts relations, or maybe leads to war. Claims could be automatic in systems with a friendly colony or stats basically surrounded by friendly stars.   Colonizing independents or in their systems should be an exception to claims - must get there first.

I suppose a player could guarantee an independent - so can not colonize or attack, but it switches to loyalty to the player if attacked by others (and attack triggers war or at least acts like mutual defence pact).

[fabio80mi]

Very nice about stances.
Adding to your planned implementation it could be used also to have ship engage aggressively in time of war.. like engage enemy ships and structures within X (some measure here... 30 second of travel time/3 LY /1third of my fuel capacity,ecc).

Now i only have to wait for the biggest and terrible flaw the game currently have, no *real* modding capabilities, to be implemented to get back to it =)
 

[Kruos]

I am pretty sure this is an intended. The documentation even TELLS you about it... yes, finding certain species and gaining them for your empire is awesome, and is a priority.
I like that mechanic and wouldn't want it "addressed".
Instead of the typical "terraforming" tech rush every other 4X space game has, you are required to find unique races... with them giving you the ability to colonize deserts and marshes early, and ice, volcanic, and ocean at all.

Yes it is intended. Yes it is a nice feature of the game. But in my opinion some tweaking is needed here, because as it is designed, with default sliders, colonization tech are pretty useless.

The fact of removing the colonization ability would not remove the interest of exploring and colonizing other race, you would still gain the racial bonus which is nice and a great feature, but not the ability to colonize, that's all.

Maybe just add an option...

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.

[RViener]

Erik, Again I ask for a list of What's Broken and What's an Improvement that is planned from Matrix. There is a lot of stuff that works as planned but is not appreciated by some of the community. You and Elliot are the mavens and direct the process. I personally would like to see the game functioning as you and Codeforce think it should before introducing changes to that and documenting appropriately.
Thanks for listening.

[Canute0]

* Engage when attacked
* Engage nearby targets (within approx 2000 screen pixels)

This is self defence, this allways should happen/active.

* Engage targets in the same system

If i want that a ship attack anything in the system, i would give a Patrol system command.

But more important is, the AI never should overwrite ANY Player command.
We wouldn't have these repair,refuel issues if player commands got higher priotity then any AI commands.

My idea about AI commands
- Patrol System with 2 or more colonies
- Patrol System with 2 or more Mining Stations
- Patrol Colonies without Starports.
- Patrol Mining Stations
- Patrol Resort Bases
- Escort Const. Ship

Freighter dont need escorts. During the flight nothing should happen, just at the destination.

Any idea when 1.05 comes out ?

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.

There are several problems.

1. It ruins the early game. In fact, it eliminates it. Once you find one of these colonies that doubles or triples your colonizable planets, the gloves are off. The game is simply colony ship spamming. And, it's like a cancer; the problem gets worse and worse. As Securans colonize worlds, you can suddenly build more Securan colony ships, taking over every desert planet. To me, it seems pretty clear that the early game is supposed to closer resemble the period when you can only colonize continental planets (or whatever).

2. It makes colonization techs pointless. In fact, they are the most pointless techs in the game. I've never had to use them. I am always able to colonize hostile worlds long before I get to the proper tech level. The first colonization upgrade is buried deep in the tech tree. Even crashing every tech to get to it takes a long time; by that time, you are bound to have found at least one alien race or one alien colony ship; typically, I've found a lot more. And I only play with rare alien races.

3. Regardless of whether the AI CAN do it, he doesn't. When I spam colony ships to take over desert and marsh worlds, I leave every AI empire in the dust in terms of colonization and population. The only thing that saves them from being obliterated is my sense of "fair" play (I usually stop colonizing in order to actually enjoy a late game period with some mediocre AI empires). I doubt other players are being that generous and that is what keeps spawning the "AI can't colonize" threads.

Polygot empire advantages are way out of proportion to any disadvantage you would have ruling over a mishmash of races. I think they should be toned down. The devs already targeted one of them (racial bonuses), but they missed the one that actually breaks the game in more ways.

Fix this, please. It should be more "balanced." Or, better yet, it should be taken out of the game altogether.

[Astax]

Well one fine solution would be to introduce new type of Construction Component that can produce ships and colony ships. All other ship yards cannot make colony ships. This component would be 1) Expensive, 2) VERY large.  You would have to put it on a Large Spaceport. I know that now colonies make colony ships, not space ports, but bear ("\(-.-)/") with me.  Your home world would start with such a space port.  But to build one on a new planet would be difficult and time consuming.  Maybe even make it require certain amount of population.  That way when you get a new race you would have to make this spaceport in order to colonize the new planets. And once you build one and colonize your first new planet like an ocean, you can't turn around and build another large spaceport right away.  This I feel is a good fix. But it will be a bit difficult getting the AI to work with this.  So some programming required

Let me know how you feel about this jscott991, and others.

[jscott991]

That's a pretty good solution.

[Kruos]

Well one fine solution would be to introduce new type of Construction Component that can produce ships and colony ships. All other ship yards cannot make colony ships. This component would be 1) Expensive, 2) VERY large. You would have to put it on a Large Spaceport. I know that now colonies make colony ships, not space ports, but bear ("\(-.-)/") with me. Your home world would start with such a space port. But to build one on a new planet would be difficult and time consuming. Maybe even make it require certain amount of population. That way when you get a new race you would have to make this spaceport in order to colonize the new planets. And once you build one and colonize your first new planet like an ocean, you can't turn around and build another large spaceport right away. This I feel is a good fix. But it will be a bit difficult getting the AI to work with this. So some programming required

Let me know how you feel about this jscott991, and others.

It could be a good solution but, as you said, not so easy to integrate because of the additionnal AI programming work. Anyway, every modifications or tweaks will need a little work on the AI, so...

[Stardog]

ASTAX

That was very nicely thought out and I second it.! BUT As You & Kruos has stated could this be done &/or can the AI handle it.? Matrix/Code Force seem to be going in the right direction with the game.

Can't wait for 105 !!!.. Nice changes/add in's Erik!!..

WM

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Kruos

I am pretty sure this is an intended. The documentation even TELLS you about it... yes, finding certain species and gaining them for your empire is awesome, and is a priority.
I like that mechanic and wouldn't want it "addressed".
Instead of the typical "terraforming" tech rush every other 4X space game has, you are required to find unique races... with them giving you the ability to colonize deserts and marshes early, and ice, volcanic, and ocean at all.

Yes it is intended. Yes it is a nice feature of the game. But in my opinion some tweaking is needed here, because as it is designed, with default sliders, colonization tech are pretty useless.

The fact of removing the colonization ability would not remove the interest of exploring and colonizing other race, you would still gain the racial bonus which is nice and a great feature, but not the ability to colonize, that's all.

Maybe just add an option...

do you have ideas for specific tweaks that will not diminish the unique flavor of distant worlds?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Canute

* Engage when attacked
* Engage nearby targets (within approx 2000 screen pixels)

This is self defence, this allways should happen/active.

* Engage targets in the same system

If i want that a ship attack anything in the system, i would give a Patrol system command.

But more important is, the AI never should overwrite ANY Player command.
We wouldn't have these repair,refuel issues if player commands got higher priotity then any AI commands.

My idea about AI commands
- Patrol System with 2 or more colonies
- Patrol System with 2 or more Mining Stations
- Patrol Colonies without Starports.
- Patrol Mining Stations
- Patrol Resort Bases
- Escort Const. Ship

Freighter dont need escorts. During the flight nothing should happen, just at the destination.

Any idea when 1.05 comes out ?

Actually we need a guard/defend command.

-Guard/Defend planet: The ship is assigned to defend a specific planet. The ship will not leave orbit of this planet for ANY reason. The ship will attack and drive off (but not chase) any enemy or pirate vessel that gets within X distance of the guarded planet.
-Guard/defend station: Same as with a planet, only this time the ship is on station with a base and won't leave it for any reason. However it will attack any hostile that gets close to the base.
-Escort: This mission currently exists.

This allows a player to assign a defensive fleet to a high value target and not have to worry about it flying off to chase after a pirate frigate when an enemy assault force is bearing down on the high value target. These player assigned missions should never be overridden by the AI for any reason. Refueling would take place at the planet that is guarded, or at the closest refuelling point (in the case of a station without refueling capability) and the ships should immediately return to guard duty after refuelling.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Canute
But more important is, the AI never should overwrite ANY Player command.

this is where you are totally and utterly wrong. you are talking about principle here but its a misguided principle. the player should have the option to FORCE a command, but otherwise the AI should take over in certain specific cases.

Let me give you a real example from the game before auto-refuel was implemented.
I order my ship to attack an enemy base. It goes and starts firing, it fires, fires fires, and runs out of fuel. without fuel it CANNOT FIRE. my command to it was "attack" so it "attacks" by just sitting there on top of the enemy and getting shot at until it dies. too bad so sad.
with auto refuel it will break to refuel when it runs out, then RESUME the last order I gave it, coming back to fight... at lower tech levels this means that it could do several round trips before blowing up a space base, and that is better then the alternative of micro managing the whole thing.

those auto abilities are there by player demand and they are there because they are necessary. The game mechanics are such that you NEED them to avoid horribly tedious micro-management. Now, they DO need a little bit of tweaking and there SHOULD be a way to overrule those, such as ordering a ship to go somewhere and do something DESPITE having no fuel.

BTW, the AI doesn't actually overwrites your command, it pauses your order and SAVES it, then goes to refuel, then RESUMES the command you gave it. so your command is not gone, it is carried out. the complaint was "the AI is so dumb, I tell it to kill something, it flies up to it and just sits there because its too dumb to know that it needs fuel to FIRE ITS WEAPONS! ARRG! it should go refuel automatically and then come back here and kill what I told it to kill"... so the developers listened and created an auto-refuel function that does EXACTLY that. could be it tweaked a little to be more smart? certainly, and that is one of the things that have been confirmed for 1.05

[Bartje]

Cheaper / earlier colonization tech ?

To offset the advantage multi racial empires get.

Also; Give homogenity benefits in the sense of political unity to empires that have a single or only a few races. (max 2??)

The more diverse a group gets the more conflicts of interest will take place.

Diverse groups and multi racial empires (Austria-Hungary anyone?) Have a tendency to be powder kegs. Perhaps certain factions can attempt to claim independence spawning new empires? Perhaps they can be incited?

Unhappiness should be more severe in such empires as well. (perhaps less so in a democracy / republic but seperatism should be more of an issue then)



I think these solutions wouldn't require an AI rewrite nor would they really alter the game that much. (AI would need to learn to aim for colonization tech though!)

the early continental only stage doesn't really work anyway. Diversity vs Homogenous would be a nice mechanic to use here I think.



EDIT: Another balanced way would be to diminish the racial bonus a race gives based on population percentage.

playing with humans you would thus have your bonus depending on how what the percentage of humans is in your empire.

Large multi racial empires would then receive many weak bonusses making them well rounded while large single race empires would receive one strong racial bonus.


Eitherway I still feel the colony tech should be cheaper.